Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED*

Want some new struts? What brand springs to buy? How much camber to run? What brake pads? What's the best setup for your situation....
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Re: Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED

Postby heavywoody » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:30 pm

Don't forget the J-body crew... they helped us pull through on the Eibach buy.


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Re: Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED

Postby 3X00-Modified » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:36 pm

That may seal the deal since I highly doubt we can drum up enough L-body and older J-Bodys to get the older version made but I could be wrong.



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Re: Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED

Postby 3X00-Modified » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:20 am

Ok, Still waiting for a reply from Koni... Now the two options are get the 95-05 cavalier version re-made and use these bushings still which would allow use of the 92+ upper strut mounts on the L-body. If going that route I would have to find some 95-05 support from Cavi owners to get a solid GB I'm guessing...

If I ask them to do the OLDER version of the strut which fit the 87-91 Beretta that would require finding 84-94 Cavi owners to participate as well. This would also eliminate the need for this bushing as well as require anyone doing this swap on their Beretta to use the 91 and older upper strut mounts. 92+ mounts are out of the question because the threaded portion of the rod changed length between the years.



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Re: Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED

Postby 3X00-Modified » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:23 am

Info I just found....

Struts/Shocks:
-Koni Yellow Strut Insert How-To (by Matt)
-2nd gen Mitsubishi Eclipse (90-94) inserts can also be used. They are 15mm shorter and have more travel than the 3rd gen inserts. The only real reason for using these would be for more overall suspension travel.

Time to look into this part...

PN#8641-1231Sport



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Re: Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED

Postby Slinky » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:26 am

I personally would prefer for the ones to be made with the inserts, the others that ordered the bushings most likly feel the samr way, but im starting to lean toward kyb again now not knowing if or when these could be produced coupled with the fact they would cost even more than they already did vs the $110 for both kyb..

Price an eta would help alot LOL


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Re: Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED

Postby Slinky » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:27 am

3X00-Modified wrote:Info I just found....

Struts/Shocks:
-Koni Yellow Strut Insert How-To (by Matt)
-2nd gen Mitsubishi Eclipse (90-94) inserts can also be used. They are 15mm shorter and have more travel than the 3rd gen inserts. The only real reason for using these would be for more overall suspension travel.

Time to look into this part...

PN#8641-1231Sport



Nice find out!


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Re: Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED

Postby 3X00-Modified » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:30 am

Well I'm simply waiting on them and then after that I'll have to wait on interested buyers to get a GB setup if that is even possible.... so honestly you have two options... Go KYB for now till we find/have enough people for a GB because I can tell you it WONT happen before spring with our user base and peoples money availability... OR your other option is to go for these Mitsubishi inserts and see if they actually work.

If they do work that would save this GB...

http://www.race-mart.com/Koni-KON-8641-1231SPORT.html



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Re: Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED

Postby 3X00-Modified » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:11 pm

He had my 2 sets complete when I told him to put production on hold...

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All the rest are cut to length and center bored so no way to return material... just a bunch of donuts rolling around as he put it.



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Re: Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED

Postby 3X00-Modified » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:03 pm

Well... Someone has some reading to do...
Jonathan,

Unfortunately you are too late because we used to make KONI Sport adjustable front struts inserts and rear shocks specifically for the Beretta/Corsica/Grand Am/ etc. cars Looking in a 1999 catalog, the front part numbers were 8641-1239Sport and the rears were 8040-1133Sport. These are listed for the ’87-91 models but I don’t have enough specific knowledge on that car to know if it might have applied to any of the later cars. They were discontinued probably 10 years ago or so due to slow sales just like the Cavalier has been recently. There is a small chance that there might be a dealer or two who could have some new old stock remaining. Probably the best candidate would be www.classicgarage.com who specializes in stocking old KONI applications no longer in production. That would certainly the best answer for you if any of those could still be found.

The Cougar/Thunderbird went away recently for the same reasons that time has simply moved along and there was not enough demand. The front damper was a very atypical design and was the first to go away and then the straggling rears sold out over time.

To make another production run of the Cavalier units, we’d need to be able to make 50 fronts and 50 rears and have one company or group purchase them all upon arrival. This would be then an exclusive situation and we would not make any more for sale for any other customer or would at least wait until the group releases the exclusivity to allow someone else access to the units. That could be a tuner or any company willing to step forward and buy them all. The wholesaler behind www.classicgarage.com can also act as the company to have these units manufactured as they do this for a number of cars already (Datsun Z, Chevy. Corvair, Sunbeam Tiger, Subaru SVX, etc.). If you can make a deal with them, then they can order the production run from us and provide them to you or others based on whatever arrangements were made.

Best regards,
Lee Grimes
KONI America
Automotive Product Mgr.
1961 International Way
Hebron, KY 41048
Cell (859) 630-9350
Desk (859) 586-4100 ext. 316
Fax (859) 334-3340
Jonathan,

I responded to the prior email a few minutes ago. We cannot do a group buy that is organized by us but we can build a production run for a single company or individual to arrange and pay for and that person can organize a group buy or sell them however they want.

I cannot send drawing of the inserts themselves but the key specification of the insert Outside Diameter is not stated on the drawings anyway. Every application is vehicle specific and by definition an insert must be an exact dimensional fit inside the strut house for it to be secure and safe. We do not have any data that shows the IDs of the OE strut housings. I have done a review of the maximum extended and minimum compressed lengths and the valving specifications at two piston speeds (0.33meters/sec. or 13.0 inches/sec and .13 meters/sec or 5.1 inches/sec.) and find the specs for the Cavalier (8641-1494Sport ), Eclipse (8641-1231Sport) and the old Beretta/Grand Am (8641-1239Sport) to be quite different.

Max. extended (mm) Min. Compressed (mm) Rebound damping max/min (Newtons/sec) Compression damping (Newtons/sec)

8641-1239Sport 580 417 1300/650 @ .33 m/s 400 @ .33 m/s
500/250 @ .13 m/s 280 @ .13 m/s

8641-1454Sport 567 400 2500/1250 @ .33 m/s 700 @ .33 m/s
1500/750 @ .13 m/s 400 @ .13 m/s

8641-1231Sport 528 375 2100/1050 @ .33 m/s 900 @ .33 m/s
1320/660 @ .13 m/s 650 @ .13 m/s

Looking at the data, dimensionally the Beretta and Cavalier units are similar with Cavalier being ½ to ¾ inch shorter but the Cavalier is nearly double the rebound and compression damping forces of the Beretta. Although the valving of the Eclipse unit in rebound is in between the other two cars, the compression damping is much higher and most concerning the max and min dimensions are much shorter. Because of the way that it is designed, takes loading in the suspension, and makes beam strength or resists bending, It is extremely important that you not run too short an insert in a car or have it too far extended as the strength drops very rapidly as you extend it more than it was meant to be based on the vehicle ride height. Over-extending an insert is the primary way for failure when cross referencing part numbers so simply putting a very short strut insert in a car is often a very bad idea in reality.


Looking at the rears, here are the specs:

Max. extended (mm) Min. Compressed (mm) Rebound damping max/min (Newtons/sec) Compression damping (Newtons/sec)
8040-1133Sport 573 367 1700/850 @ .33 m/s 330 @ .33 m/s
560/280 @ .13 m/s 200 @ .13 m/s

8041-1309Sport 614 434 2000/1000 @ .33 m/s 300 @ .33 m/s
560/280 @ .13 m/s 200 @ .13 m/s

8041-1191Sport 560 337 1500/750 @ .33 m/s 450 @ .33 m/s
890/445 @ .13 m/s 200 @ .13 m/s

The Cavalier rear shock is the outlier here with a much longer length (about 4 inches compressed) than the other two. It makes the most rebound force but the least high piston speed compression force.


Hopefully this data provides some insight but I think the key takeaway is that the Eclipse front insert is likely to be a bad idea unless you do a great deal of research and confirmation and the car’s ride height is sitting considerably lower than on the others.

Best regards,
Lee Grimes
KONI America
Automotive Product Mgr.
1961 International Way
Hebron, KY 41048
Cell (859) 630-9350
Desk (859) 586-4100 ext. 316
Fax (859) 334-3340



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Re: Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED

Postby 93 3.1L » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:45 pm

3X00-Modified wrote:He had my 2 sets complete when I told him to put production on hold...

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All the rest are cut to length and center bored so no way to return material... just a bunch of donuts rolling around as he put it.


Im still interested in the bushings, as i already have the inserts on hand. Are you still going to make sets for the ones still interested?



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Re: Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED

Postby 3X00-Modified » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:20 pm

Yes I will make sets for those still interested no doubt about that.



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Re: Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED

Postby 3X00-Modified » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:16 am

Please I need those involved in this GB to respond to what info has been presented to us so I know weather or not you wish to continue with this purchase. I will have them made if you want them but I don't want a ton of machine work to pay for if they aren't going to get used.



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Re: Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED

Postby 93 3.1L » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:03 am

3X00-Modified wrote:Yes I will make sets for those still interested no doubt about that.


Ok thanks



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Re: Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED

Postby 3X00-Modified » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:41 am

What I can gather from the info Koni sent me is for one the original 78-91 struts that were produced for the beretta have MUCH softer dampening than the J-body's that I currently have installed... The compression is 400 @ .33N-m/s where the J-body is near twice that at 700 @ .33N-m/s. The rebound is adjustable between 650-1300 and the J-body has a range of 1250-2500

The second alternative that was give by the J-body group wasn't taken well by the Koni guys but I can only assume because they are comparing it to the original 87-91 specs they have on hand and not to the 92-96 strut spec regarding length and whatnot since I know the older ones were longer extended to compensate for the difference in the strut mount thread length.

He doesn't have the outer diameter specs on hand to compare but I can only assume if J-body guys are saying they are usable then I guess they would be the same diameter and fit this bushing.

SO The opportunity is out there with the Mitsu stuff, the dampening is now know and is still stiffer than the original 87-91 option as well as stiffer static compression dampening and just a slightly smaller adjustable range on the rebound, and the strut itself is slightly shorter which would give you some more travel with a lowered vehicle if you wanted it... For reference my tires will hit my front fenders if I go to full bump stop compression on the fronts I have and those are supposedly only 17mm shorter fully compressed than the old beretta Koni ones.

I don't believe we can fully support another production run of these since they want 50 sets (Front AND Rear) so I think those who want the Cavi cartridges need to call around to see if anyone has any left over stock... and those willing to try something new can order the Mitsubishi ones from Race-Mart, OR you can request a refund on these bushings and I will send it your way.

Let me know what you all want to do.



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Re: Koni Strut cartridge bushings Group Buy Interest *CLOSED

Postby Amateur » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:53 am

I'm still in for the inserts. It's not like they're expensive and with the deposit I already put down, I'm not losing out on much here. I could probably still find a set of Koni's from somewhere. If I was able to track down and buy brand new GM OEM shifter/selector cables that have been long discontinued for my 95 as recent as 2011 after months and months of searching and calling around, then I'm sure I can find a set of Koni J-body inserts lying around.

At the very least, I'm all for experimenting with new inserts. So yes, I'm still on board.




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