Crankshaft sensor relearn?

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Money pit Beretta
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Re: Crankshaft sensor relearn?

Postby Money pit Beretta » Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:13 pm

Was thinking the FPR, thanks for the info! I'll get one ordered ASAP. On the TPS it is somewhat new. But I did have one wire pull out of the connecter and a new pig tail with connecter was soldered on(no butt connecters). Could be a problem there, but I hope not. Could use my basic scan tool to check % vs throttle opening. It can also check knock sensor values if that would help. It's an Auto Xray so there is very little info.

Seems to be a few things going wrong at the same time on this car making it hard to pinpoint.

No fuel in the FPR that I can tell, but that doesn't make me think it's ok. Just FYI the cut is a true cut or a massive loss of power. Almost like a rev limiter gone crazy. It jerks just like one when the pedal is pushed too much.

When it tries to die at a light(so far it has not) the tach jumps.


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Re: Crankshaft sensor relearn?

Postby RobertISaar » Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:28 pm

depending on how quickly it updates, you may be able to rule it as bad. when my last one went, upon the throttle getting snapped shut, closed throttle voltage would dip about .1 volts below normal for a short period of time, then the PCM would relearn that as the 0% reference point, so a half second later it would think the throttle was getting opened again and would add IAC steps for the throttle follower function, causing the idle speed to go insane.

you may be able to slowly sweep the throttle(key on, engine off) and find a location where it quits tracking correctly, but that may not show a flaw that only shows up with fast throttle transitions.... need an oscilloscope for that.

I don't think I've seen it on a 60V6 application, but if the throttle shaft starts getting sloppy due to bushing wear, that can cause the TPS to produce a bad signal or even destroy new ones.

you might see knock when this occurs, hard to say, I've never had enough knock occur on fast transitions to feel this significant of a problem though. since it doesn't occur with a slow opening, it sounds more like transitional fueling than anything else.

wanting to die at idle wouldn't be a transitional fueling issue though.... might be related, might not. to me, a jumping tach would indicate the ICM or 7X crank sensor, both of which you've replaced....



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Re: Crankshaft sensor relearn?

Postby Money pit Beretta » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:34 am

Ok I'll see what the Auto Xray comes up with tonight. Damn thing is better than nothing, but not much better. It can data log about 29sec, that is if the very old software would be able to work on this computer. Going to stick to the basics right now and not try to cause another headache.

The throttle shaft was not easy to put into the TCE. As tight as it was guessing that is ok.

BWD is the brand of sensor most used on this car. At one time they could be trusted. Not so much now, so a new 7x may be put in later. A new Delphi knock sensor is on the way(it has never been replaced). The FPR will be ordered today or Thursday.


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Re: Crankshaft sensor relearn?

Postby Money pit Beretta » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:12 pm

Had to start the car for the scan. Not sure why.
MAP 1.43v
Throttle sensor .39v
Throttle angle 0% did move it to 12% and it went back to 0%
Knock sensor 1
Knock retard 0%
BLK learn cell 16
AF 13.5
IP 3.2ms
Right blk learn value 116
Right integrator value 124
O2 range 78-799
IAC motor pos 26 steps
learned idle pos 22 steps
Fuel pump sense 13.3
Spark adv 23.8 this is freeze frame as some of the other stuff is
no codes
EGR off
Block learn disabled
Closed loop AF enabled
Cam pulse switching from not detected to detected a quick rev doesn't change this
Park neutral detected
TCC Solenoid off
Coolant temp 157.1F
Manifold air temp was 85.8F
Last edited by Money pit Beretta on Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Crankshaft sensor relearn?

Postby Money pit Beretta » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:20 pm

Guessing that the cam sensor is bad or there is a bad connection. Did also stab the throttle when watching the KS retard. The engine cut with no change in retard. Listed info is what was deemed useful(AC info is there, but not needed).


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Re: Crankshaft sensor relearn?

Postby RobertISaar » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:23 pm

all of that seems reasonable. cam pulse bit is acting as intended, it's something the processor keeps track of to let it know when a cam pulse occurs and then counts all 7X(3X) crank sensor pulses afterwards to keep track of which cylinders are upcoming their fuel and ignition events.

TPS of .39 is right on the low end of acceptable.



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Re: Crankshaft sensor relearn?

Postby Money pit Beretta » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:45 pm

I see, that is good to know on the cam sensor, thank you again. Have one more TPS sitting around that could be tried. The first new one was replaced before the broken wire was found. The thought was it was bad after the idle problem came back. As with all things with this car new parts solve the problem for a short time.

So should the FPR still be replaced? I was able to jab the throttle and get the cut. A few quick stabs when it was happening covered the cut almost completely. Have been getting a little bolder and testing this out more.


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Re: Crankshaft sensor relearn?

Postby RobertISaar » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:04 pm

hmm..... if you had a fuel pressure gauge, I imagine you would have hooked it up by now to see what's happening in the rail. my gut says you replaced the pump/filter, the only major fuel components left are the regulator and injectors themselves. I can't see the injectors only acting dumb during a transient condition, so if you're have a fueling issue, I would think the FPR/its vacuum connections is the next logical step.

brain says: verify rail pressure and swap known good parts when possible.



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Re: Crankshaft sensor relearn?

Postby Money pit Beretta » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:20 am

Very odd that I don't have a fuel pressure gauge or a compression tester. After all these years of messing with old cars you would think I'd have both.
Somehow never needed them until now.
The injectors are Venture Van Delphi's, just a few years old. They were not flow matched or even tested before they went into the engine. Still as you say it would be hard to put the blame on them.
Swear the FPR was vacuum tested by me last year or the year before, but things can change quickly. It will be ordered tonight for sure. Also the spare TPS will be found and tried(tonight).


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Re: Crankshaft sensor relearn?

Postby Money pit Beretta » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:18 pm

It was between two AC's and a BWD. The newest looking AC was used. The car had been sitting, but the first start was much better. The next one was what normal should be. As for driving that will be tomorrow. Oh and there was a BWD TPS on the car, really not liking them now. They have a spring inside, where the AC's do not.


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Re: Crankshaft sensor relearn?

Postby Money pit Beretta » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:08 am

Starting is better, but it's not a smooth start when cold. The cut is still there, just not as bad. Band new AC TPS is on the way at this time. As is the Delco FPR. Got the KS and that will be put on just in case this weekend.


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Re: Crankshaft sensor relearn?

Postby 1988GTU » Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:20 am

Are you capable of posting up a video when the 'cut out' happens?


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Re: Crankshaft sensor relearn?

Postby Money pit Beretta » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:54 am

Not able to do that.


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Re: Crankshaft sensor relearn?

Postby Money pit Beretta » Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:30 pm

New AC TPS on. Starting is even better, but still not what it should be cold. Warm start will be tested later this week. No time last weekend for anything other than the TPS.


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Re: Crankshaft sensor relearn?

Postby ifixalot » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:56 am

Just a thought, our 96 3100, after engine swap, developed a bog or hesitation.
It was caused by the alternator 10 gauge wire,intermittently shorting out as the engine twisted.
I assume this caused enough voltage drop, as it shorted out, to cause the ignition system to stop producing spark.




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