How to Begin Restoration??

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wgrebel47
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How to Begin Restoration??

Postby wgrebel47 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:34 pm

Mrng.
I am about to start my '95 Z-26 Restoration; I am restoring the Body and Motor..
I bought it used, some body damage and engine parts missing.. I want to put some
extra HP in the engine but keep it streetable..
Pretend that I do not know anything (which is mostly true); what is the 1st thing
I need to do and the following steps?? All ideas and suggestions are welcome..
Thx. W.G. Davis


Thx. 73 W.G.

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Re: How to Begin Restoration??

Postby Asylum » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:14 pm

OK this is going to be brutal and honest, and you are not going to like it!
There are no reproduction or restoration parts for these car other than just buying a good one.
Scrap that one, buy a plane ticket to California or Arizona and find one that is rust free.
I have done it TWICE from Canada.
There are NO PARTS for these cars available anywhere.
Unless you are a big fan of BONDO!!
And bondo is not a good idea on spring perches or sub frame rails.
You can NOT restore one of these things without an endless wallet.
Just find a nice one, go get it, and be done with it.
Sorry for telling the truth!
:beer: :beer:


Eric

Asylum Motorsports
"Where we're not happy 'til YOU'RE not happy!






'91 California Quad
'92 3500 GT gone and not really missed. It was fun. Documented 13.47 N/A.

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GT_Indy
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Re: How to Begin Restoration??

Postby GT_Indy » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:07 am

I agree that the money spent trying to restore it could easily be the same or more than what it would cost to find a nice one. It depends on how far you want to go with the restoration and what all you plan on doing.

If anything needs replaced it might be a lot of custom work. There are places that can clean up the unibody like a frame off restoration would be on older classics.

For engine/performance check out http://www.wot-tech.com for info. There is also Milzy Motorsports in Ohio.

There are also write ups on 3400 swaps in the forums if you wanted to swap in a low mileage 3400. That is the most straight forward upgrade which I believe is a bolt in swap and can work off the stock 3100 ECM.
Other members have swapped 3500's, 3800 SC's, 3.4 DOHC's, some are turbo/supercharged, 5 or 6 speed swaps. But it takes more custom work depending on what you want under the hood.

If you want to find a nice one or if you are restoring your current vehicle check for water in the carpet, look at the rear spring and shock supports for rust, inner edges of the rear fenders, under the car on each side about 1 foot behind the front wheels, and door jams. Those are common rust areas I have seen on the Beretta.


96 Beretta Z26 swap
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wgrebel47
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Re: How to Begin Restoration??

Postby wgrebel47 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:39 am

Thx. 4 the Replies..
It is a long story, but it has got to be this one.. I also want it to look as original as it can; no engine size changes (3.1L)..
Having said that, what is my best option, find a good used engine or buy an rebuilt one and modify
that one or the used engine??


Thx. 73 W.G.

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Re: How to Begin Restoration??

Postby themixer » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:43 am

Get a good used 3400 motor and place it in, you can actually keep the 3100 upper intake to keep it original looking. With a 1995 it should bolt right in as factory. as for the auto trans Jon 3x00-modified would be best to talk to, personally finding a parts car and welding in the mount for a 5 speed swap would be ideal.



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Re: How to Begin Restoration??

Postby GT_Indy » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:26 am

This site is good for finding used auto parts:
http://www.car-part.com

Just be careful though. Sometimes it can be hit or miss with used engines. Even low mileage ones.
There is also the option to buy a new 3100 long block and swap the intake, oil pan, and sensors after cleaning them up.
I agree that if you want it to look stock a 3400 swap with the 3100 intake plenum on it would look the same and be the easiest way to gain hp. The extra displacement can help.

I dont remember who but there is at least 1 member who is doing a full restore of his Beretta. He took it down to the shell and had new metal welded in and cleaned it up really nice. He may be able to help you more if you got in contact with him. But like mentioned above, this type of restoration can become pretty costly.


96 Beretta Z26 swap
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Re: How to Begin Restoration??

Postby wgrebel47 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:35 pm

GT_Indy wrote:This site is good for finding used auto parts:
http://www.car-part.com

Just be careful though. Sometimes it can be hit or miss with used engines. Even low mileage ones.
There is also the option to buy a new 3100 long block and swap the intake, oil pan, and sensors after cleaning them up.
I agree that if you want it to look stock a 3400 swap with the 3100 intake plenum on it would look the same and be the easiest way to gain hp. The extra displacement can help.

I dont remember who but there is at least 1 member who is doing a full restore of his Beretta. He took it down to the shell and had new metal welded in and cleaned it up really nice. He may be able to help you more if you got in contact with him. But like mentioned above, this type of restoration can become pretty costly.

**************************************************************************************************************************
Thx. 4 the replies, Mr. GT_Indy & Mr. themixer
I owned an '96 Monte Carlo with an 3.4 DOHC, this engine does not look like the 3.1L in my Beretta..
I wanted to stay with the 3.1L, if there is an 3.4L that looks the same and performs better, I could be
talked into it.. What is the difference, the Bore and/or the Stroke??


Thx. 73 W.G.

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Re: How to Begin Restoration??

Postby GT_Indy » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:15 pm

There is the 3.4 DOHC and the 3400 SFI.

The 3400 SFI looks like the 3100 SFI. and the intake is swappable from the 3100 SFI to the 3400 SFI.

Below is a photo of each:

The 3400 SFI: (Code: LA1; Gen 3 v6)
70191517.jpg



The 3.4 DOHC: (Code: LQ1; Gen 2 v6)
67678080.jpg


Wiki page has more info:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_60°_V6_engine[/url]

The 3100 SFI has 160 hp and 185 lb-ft torque.
The 3400 SFI has 185 hp and 210 lb-ft torque.

I saw in your other thread that you want to achieve 200 or more hp. I may be easier to achieve that and possibly more with the 3400 over the 3100.
Last edited by GT_Indy on Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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96 Beretta Z26 swap
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Re: How to Begin Restoration??

Postby Rettax3 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:41 pm

1. If you want to retain an utterly STOCK look to your car, yes you can swap-in a 3400, BUT you have to replace the ENTIRE intake manifold (upper AND lower) -the 3400 lower manifold does not match up to the upper 3100 (VIN M) plenum, which all '95 V-6 Berettas had. It does match up to the VIN -J 3100 lower intake, but those do look slightly different, and now you are sourcing parts from yet another eninge.
2. If you do use a 3400 (same stroke as a 3100 so same crank, with slightly larger pistons, similar block, similar heads, MOST parts interchange, you may have to work-out issues with the lower radiator hose and possibly the timing case, depending on what donor you get) but re-use your 3100 (M) intake, you will NOT have the 185-rated power that engine is good for -smaller intake runners and smaller throttle body are more restrictive, even the ports in the heads are slightly different (I have a 3100 VIN M engine, with an upper and lower intake assembly from a 3400, the gaskets matched well enough to work, but it isn't the most efficient setup -it does make a lot more power than the stock 3100 (M) intake made, but it is opposite of what you are trying for). Be sure to use the steel- and-rubber intake gaskets, Fel-Pro makes them and so does Dorman -do NOT go with plastic/silicone! Especially if you are intermixing VIN 'M' 3100 and 3400 top-end parts.
3. What kind of budget do you have for the drivetrain on this? Unless you are pounding on this thing deliberately, the stock 4T60E trans is likely the last thing you need to worry about, at your very realistic power goals. If your budget is under $1000, and you are limited on what work you can do yourself (tranny rebuilding, cylinder head-work, etc), then that will point you into a very specific direction. 3400, good cam, good ECU tune, possibly upgrade fuel pump and injectors while you are there, and a decent exhaust should get you there the cheapest while retaining stock appearance, IMO.
4. 3500s have their own share of problems (crank trigger namely) that make them less than bolt-n-go, but I doubt you would need much in the way of performance bolt-ons at that point to reach your goal, not sure how the 3100 'M' manifold will work with a 3500 though.
GT_Indy wrote:Other members have swapped 3500's, 3800 SC's, 3.4 DOHC's
BTW, I have NEVER seen anyone else swap in the 3.4 DOHC (aside from a mock-up in a Cavvy) -even mine isn't finished yet, and I believe it is the only one being built to date (please correct me if I am wrong)... :pardon:


1989 SuperCharged 3800 Srs-II (First)Six-Speed GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 LA1/L82 4T60E Z-26
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26

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Re: How to Begin Restoration??

Postby GT_Indy » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:16 pm

I second the steel/rubber felpro lower intake gaskets. I have those on my 96 Beretta's 3100 engine. The plastic ones always get brittle and crack appart.

Rettax3: I thought there was one other 3.4 DOHC swap someone started on a Beretta some years ago and they never finished/gave up? I know there are several 3.4 DOHC and 5 spd fiero's out there. lol
I'm personally wondering if an HT4100 v8 and 5 spd would fit in a Beretta, because I seen a couple fiero's online with that swap.


96 Beretta Z26 swap
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Re: How to Begin Restoration??

Postby wgrebel47 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:06 pm

1st. I want to thank Mr. GT_Indy for the Pictures.. Thx. 2 Mr. Rettax3 also..
I was trying to keep my Beretta as original as I could, but some of my engine is missing parts..
I never thought about changing the engine size, but I am not opposed as long as it looks Okay..
I am pretty sure that my 3.1L is an (M) type.. What year and type of 3400 will work best for me;
smooth swap/engine change.. Without knowing; what HP can I expect for 3400 with larger throttle body
65 maybe, nice camshaft and nice heads?? I am alright using the best Upper & Lower Intake units that will work..
What else can be done without going to radical??
Not sure on your question on my budget; I am looking at $2500.00 to $3000.00 for a paint job..
My budget is pay as U go type.. ☺ I don't mind a few extra dollars as long as it is better and
cost efficient.. I may have a lead on an used 4T60e-HD..


Thx. 73 W.G.

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Re: How to Begin Restoration??

Postby GT_Indy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:21 am

I suggest taking a look at the underneath and making sure it isnt rusting to much before going too far. This way you know you will have a car that you can enjoy for a long time after making it better.

When you open your doors do you see any rust holes in the door james in the bottom front corners on the unibody? Any bubbling under the paint?

Do you see any rust on the rear spring supports?
Here is a photo showing spring supports as an example.
20170915_171206.jpg


96 Beretta Z26 swap
90 Beretta GTZ
90 Beretta Indy

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Rettax3
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Re: How to Begin Restoration??

Postby Rettax3 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:10 am

GT_Indy wrote:I second the steel/rubber felpro lower intake gaskets. I have those on my 96 Beretta's 3100 engine. The plastic ones always get brittle and crack appart.
Rettax3: I thought there was one other 3.4 DOHC swap someone started on a Beretta some years ago and they never finished/gave up? I know there are several 3.4 DOHC and 5 spd fiero's out there.


There are some places that PLASTIC just does not belong. :no:

There are MANY Fieros with 3.4 DOHCs -that was a popular swap due to the extra power and fun revability the DOHC offers, and their bays are a lot bigger than ours... But you can't even access the front spark-plugs on that swap! :P
:deadhorse: I never have seen another Beretta with one though -just the J-Body mock-up, and they never figured out how to clear the brake master-cylinder or deal with the alternator issue, as far as I recall. Hey, if I am going through this much trouble on an engine-swap and still dating my car back to its' own Model Year, I want to keep all the credit I can! :D

Generally speaking, any VIN-'E' 3400 will work about as good as any other. EGRs changed, some minor things like that. Mine was from a '99 Ram-Air Grand Am GT "H.O." Here is a list of possible donors for you:

1996 Chevrolet Lumina APV
1997-2005 Chevrolet Venture
1996-2004 Oldsmobile Silhouette
1996-1998 Pontiac Trans Sport
1999-2005 Pontiac Montana
1999-2004 Oldsmobile Alero
1999-2005 Pontiac Grand Am
2000-2005 Chevrolet Impala
2000-2005 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
2001-2005 Pontiac Aztek
2002-2005 Buick Rendezvous

List courtesy of Wikipedia.

BTW, according to that source, NONE of the cars were rated at 185 HP, only the vans/SUVs -the cars were good for 170-180... Probably better exhaust systems on the bigger vehicles, I would think, maybe tuning to accommodate the heavier vehicles.


1989 SuperCharged 3800 Srs-II (First)Six-Speed GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 5-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 5-Speed Indy GTi (Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 LA1/L82 4T60E Z-26
1995 3.4 DOHC Turbo 5-Speed Z-26

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Re: How to Begin Restoration??

Postby GT_Indy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:21 am

I think it was all in the tuning, I don't know if they made different cams. The exhaust on our venture was nothing special, aside from having a giant muffler which made it super quiet.

To share my expierence; I did something similar some years ago with my 96 that I still have:
I replaced my engine, got it repainted, audio, Z26 kit swap, other small things. I wouldn't have done anything to it if it had rust. That wheel well photo is my 96 in 2017 summer. These cars can stay nice, just keep them away from winter salt if you can.
My 96 has a replacement 3100 in it. But sometimes I wish I would have 3400 swapped mine for the occasional day at the drag strip. I used to think back and feel like I missed out not having put a 3400 in it. lol
My current plan is to run mine till 250k-300k as a daily after I graduate, then once its used up and starting to rust I'll demolition derby it for fun. lol.


96 Beretta Z26 swap
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Re: How to Begin Restoration??

Postby wgrebel47 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:27 am

Thx 4 all the info, it will take me a while to check it all out..
Have U ever checked out this website: http://www.automobile-catalog.com/ ??


Thx. 73 W.G.


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