Raced Yesterday...

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Raced Yesterday...

Postby jene » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:29 pm

first of all I want to tell you I raced the silver z last weekend and it sucked... can not dial that car in for the life of me. So i put a warm air intake set up on the ol'corsi...and ran her tonight.. yes I had to bring her back to life cause that z is pissing me off..lol

at 9000 feet DA with the CAI i would run on average a 17.05.. not sure how but with the WAI set up. under the hood vent.. at 9000 feet tonight was in the 16.8's and 16.9's AND trapped he best ever of 85.32 mph!! never has it trapped more then a 84 and on bad air days like today its average is a 82.3.. WHAT THE FRENCH!!!! i always though cai's were better then WAI's....

now on to my sucky-ness..... one of my runs I was 4 thousandth of my dial...


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Re: Raced Yesterday...

Postby 3X00-Modified » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:41 pm

Depends on how the CAI is setup, sometimes the CAI takes in just as warm of air as the WAI would, so then now just the fact that there are 3 or 4 bends to get around to get into the engine that will rob some power. 90% of the time a WAI will get cool enough air from the front of the vehicle its only when sitting at a light will you see a rise in temps because there is no airflow under the hood. I bet if you did a data log you would see similar air temps with your CAI vs your WAI, hence why I pull mine apart at the strip and run an open maf, I don't even put a filter on it.



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Re: Raced Yesterday...

Postby jene » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:50 pm

3X00-Modified wrote:Depends on how the CAI is setup, sometimes the CAI takes in just as warm of air as the WAI would, so then now just the fact that there are 3 or 4 bends to get around to get into the engine that will rob some power. 90% of the time a WAI will get cool enough air from the front of the vehicle its only when sitting at a light will you see a rise in temps because there is no airflow under the hood. I bet if you did a data log you would see similar air temps with your CAI vs your WAI, hence why I pull mine apart at the strip and run an open maf, I don't even put a filter on it.


See this is why I like having you around!! You esplain (lingo, i knowits not spelled like that.. ha!) things to me... i have considered running maf only too but have allways worried about stuff getting into my engine or hurting the maf.. is that a not valid fear???



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Re: Raced Yesterday...

Postby 3X00-Modified » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:50 pm

It's a valid fear, but the maf has a screen on it so it will keep out large items like leaves and such... so really I wouldn't worry too much about it, and the fact that you'll only be running that way at the strip, there isnt that much crap kicked up around there. Just think, some cars run with nada over the carb, just straight pipes.



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Re: Raced Yesterday...

Postby Asylum » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:33 pm

Jene I have been messing around with a "home-built" CAI I made from some parts I bought from "Styluss" (GREAT GUY, Honest seller!!) and on my '92 I ran it straight down to the inside of the battery and just removed the splash shield and it has all the damn cold air it wants.

The problem is, and remains, that where we are perhaps putting these things may in fact be areas of negative air flow!!

I have seen NO improvement in ET or MPH (in fact the MPH may have been compromised)

Under the car and/or in the wheel well are NOT great sources for positive air folks.

Alot going on in those areas and your intake may in fact be "sucking" to get air rather than enjoying a full flow.

I'm going to do some more testing next week, but so far I have run at least as well with a WAI and just removing the filter and leaving it open to the engine bay.

Now there will be arguments I'm sure, but I am doing this on a car that is run and raced on a regular, almost weekly basis.

More to come!!

Jon has a point. ANY fresh air may be as good or perhaps better than compromised "tubed" air.

Add to that the fact my plumbing/HVAC friends tell me any bend over 45% actually decresses air flow by 30%.

A short 3" tube and a clean air entry may in fact be just as good.

My times so far reflect that!

FWIW


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Re: Raced Yesterday...

Postby Money pit Beretta » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:31 pm

Well, you can think of it this way. The CAI makes the air path longer(good for low end) and the WAI is even shorter than the stock set up and better for top end power. It's all about air path length, the total that is(from the valve to the filter).


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Re: Raced Yesterday...

Postby Asylum » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:47 pm

:beer: Well I'm not sure just how to respond to that.

Everyone is going GA-GA over CAI's and you seem to be confirming my findings that they may in fact be a hinderence to air flow.

I really think it is a possibilty, and I am going to do some A-B-A testing in two weeks at the track.

The only actual testing I have seen is a couple of dyno runs Aaron did years ago on an engine combo that no one making any sort of numbers is even using now, and has been known for inefficient airflow to begin with.

I'm going to bet I can run just as quick, or better, with a better mph with a short (12") tube, no filter, sitting in the engine bay than all the $200 CAI's you guys are falling all over yourself buying.

I have already run my best mph with that set up! And this is a car that is raced almost every weekend, has a documented history, and wins ALOT!

Hey 2.8/3.1 Guys!! $200 for a CAI and "maybe" 4-5 HP. Hell ~$800 gets you 60+ HP with a swap!

I still had the quickest 3.1 auto at 15.91 and it had a 12" short tube, and NO ONE has matched that yet!

But of course as has been suggested many times......I don't know anything about cars.

:friends:


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Re: Raced Yesterday...

Postby Money pit Beretta » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:46 am

I got a CAI to bring up my low end, the 3100 doesn't have the low end that the 3.1 has. My car is a DD, and may go to the track one day. It goes down do to what you use your car for. A long runner on a intake or a long pipe will always make more low end, but at the track you need more top end. I'm talking in the basic, there is much more to this. The short intake pipe gets the air to valve faster. It's that speed that is needed for the WOT life that the engine has on the 1/4 and not the street. A CAI should have more pressure and less velocity, again better for low end power(more bends slows the air, but makes more pressure). Think of it like Weber carbs on a engine, most had very short runners and a filter right on top of them, that = more top end power. Cowl induction is another story, but still close. The path was short, the air was cold and the pressure was high. That adds power from mid to high. Do to that short path(for V8's with a carb) the velocity was good and the much colder air made more power. That all came from the low pressure area in the cowl area, which is not the same as what a CAI gives you. Dang, it's late! Going to bed now. I don't want to put any wrong info here and there is so much more to all of this. Everybody gets the point, so I'll shut up. I should have never brought up cowl induction, that is another story all together. :fool:


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Re: Raced Yesterday...

Postby Asylum » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:09 am

Money pit Beretta wrote:I got a CAI to bring up my low end, the 3100 doesn't have the low end that the 3.1 has. My car is a DD, and may go to the track one day. It goes down do to what you use your car for. A long runner on a intake or a long pipe will always make more low end, but at the track you need more top end. I'm talking in the basic, there is much more to this. The short intake pipe gets the air to valve faster. It's that speed that is needed for the WOT life that the engine has on the 1/4 and not the street. A CAI should have more pressure and less velocity, again better for low end power(more bends slows the air, but makes more pressure). Think of it like Weber carbs on a engine, most had very short runners and a filter right on top of them, that = more top end power. Cowl induction is another story, but still close. The path was short, the air was cold and the pressure was high. That adds power from mid to high. Do to that short path(for V8's with a carb) the velocity was good and the much colder air made more power. That all came from the low pressure area in the cowl area, which is not the same as what a CAI gives you. Dang, it's late! Going to bed now. I don't want to put any wrong info here and there is so much more to all of this. Everybody gets the point, so I'll shut up. I should have never brought up cowl induction, that is another story all together. :fool:


Well except for the cowl element which is almost impossible to accomplish on our cars, you are correct.

That was my point, and what my evidence seems to be suggesting.

The CAI is NOT the answer for more overall HP at WOT, and in fact my hurt the overall performance.

I'll see what happens next time at the track.

:beer:


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Re: Raced Yesterday...

Postby Money pit Beretta » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:28 pm

Before I put on the CAI I made a WAI out of my old Tranzgenic. It had a K&N RX-4990 filter on it. That filter has another filter on the top and inside it had a good taper into the tube. Straight flow is the key for the short ram. 3X00's use of the MAP did just that. There are smaller filters out there that might fit in your car with an inverted filter in the top. Just something to think about. There is one other thing this http://www.turbohoses.com/velocity_stack.htm
Do to room this might not be able to fit though.


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wai

Postby jene » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:53 pm

my car seems to be running faster times on average with this wai then with the cai... and oddly enough more consistant when we are in the round robin mode!

friday i took 3rd in my class and then sunday my car took first at the tuner event... my car now seems to stay with in a tenth all night long now.. unlike before it varied, especially when running hot.. hot lapping, round robins...



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Re: wai

Postby Money pit Beretta » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:24 pm

Check your Raced Yesterday topic.


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Re: wai

Postby jene » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:32 pm

what the french!! hahaha.. I have to get use to this place... i read that topic and ment to reply to it.. but instead i must of made a whole new topic.. whoooppss!!!!

MODS- can you combine this one with the "raced yesterday" thread please... sorry for the newbish act! ;)

ha!! i just almost did it again..lol Im a freak! :runsies:



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Re: wai

Postby Asylum » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:57 pm

Basically I was suggesting that in a high RPM Drag Race situation "I" am of the opinion the CAI is a hinderance and a short tube is a better choice.

More to come!

:beer:



"What the French??" I liike that Jene!


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Re: wai

Postby jene » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:24 pm

Right now i am in total agreement with you.... and also the air filters is RIGHT UNDER, my hood vent... so I wonder how much that is helping as well...

Before we go to far on that silver beretta.. i want to get some more base runs out of it, then runs with the silly hood vents/cai and then switch it up ti a wai set up and compare all numbers.... or should i do it pre hood vents for all and then after i get some numbers with the wai set up... put the hood vents in to see if and how much that helped???


make me an experiement...lol




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