1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

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Re: 1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

Postby GT_Indy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:08 pm

That clutch set looks nice, no plastic parts either. Now I want to buy one. lol


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Re: 1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

Postby 3X00-Modified » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:21 pm

DanteGTZ wrote:What makes you think that?

Find the kit on their site...



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Re: 1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

Postby 3X00-Modified » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:26 pm

You will be greeted with this list if you search just the PN... Search the application and you won't find a listing.

KIT,FRONT,SUNFIRE/CAVALIER,12.19 ROTOR (OBSOLESCENT)
KIT,FRONT,SUNFIRE/CAVALIER,12.19 ROTOR DRILLED (OBSOLESCENT)
KIT,FRONT,SUNFIRE/CAVALIER,12.19 ROTOR DRILLED,RED (OBSOLESCENT)
KIT,FRONT,SUNFIRE/CAVALIER,12.19 ROTOR RED (OBSOLESCENT)

SO if someone has them in stock then yes buy it... but if not, I doubt Wilwood will ship anything to you anymore. Depends on what part they obsoleted...



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Re: 1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

Postby DanteGTZ » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:54 pm

So I got my clutch job wrapped up last Saturday. Spent the entire day cruising in the mountains with a large group and the car did great. No issues at all. Got in the car to run some errands on Monday evening and heard a knocking sound which I recognized. The flywheel bolts had come loose!!!! Even when torqued to the factory specs, with the addition of blue Loctite the threads found a way to loosen up after only ~200 miles. More to come as I pull the trans and take some pictures, but thought I'd share...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8brGjhOzs0


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Re: 1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

Postby GT_Indy » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:09 pm

DanteGTZ wrote:So I got my clutch job wrapped up last Saturday. Spent the entire day cruising in the mountains with a large group and the car did great. No issues at all. Got in the car to run some errands on Monday evening and heard a knocking sound which I recognized. The flywheel bolts had come loose!!!! Even when torqued to the factory specs, with the addition of blue Loctite the threads found a way to loosen up after only ~200 miles. More to come as I pull the trans and take some pictures, but thought I'd share...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8brGjhOzs0


That is odd. it should have held without any trouble.

The 1990 service book for Beretta says clutch pressure plate to assembly says 16 lb. ft.
same book for manual flywheel to crank says 52 lb. ft.
I don't remember if that is the same on V6 Vs quad4 but I did that on the v6 I had.
Is that the specs you used?

It does not mention thread locker, but I used a normal amount of blue thread locker when I did my clutch and flywheel years ago and it held fine, I even re-used the bolts.
I did a 2.8 to a 3.1 swap, and it took lots of abuse.
I also tightened the bolts in a star pattern.

Does both the flywheel and crank have a true surface and sit firmly together without rocking before putting the bolts in?
Aluminum flywheel or stock steel?
Is anything out of balance? I wonder if the flywheel is not true and wobbling ever so slightly causing it to vibrate enough to come lose.

I'm not sure but I believe the bolts are torque to yield, I think they need replaced when a new flywheel is put on. Not sure how I got away with re-using them back then.


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Re: 1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

Postby Rettax3 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:44 am

I've had loc-tite go bad before, and applying it was actually just putting lubricant on the threads. %) My '97 Z-24 Turbo (2.4 Twin-Cam relative to the Quad-4) also had repetitive bolt-loosening -in my case it was the clutch pressure-plate bolts that kept walking out. I noticed some years used split lock-washers, mine did not have them, possibly left off by a previous installer. I ended up drilling a large hole in the transaxle bell-housing so I could access the bolts without removing the tranny and installed lock-washers and ditched the chemical, problem permanently solved.

Some years do call for a different tightening procedure on the clutch housing, a two-step torquing sequence and a 30-degree rotation beyond that. According to one of my books, the Quads' flywheel-to-crankshaft bolts should be torqued to 22 ft-lbs, then a 45 degree rotation.


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Re: 1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

Postby GT_Indy » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:39 am

Rettax3 wrote:I've had loc-tite go bad before, and applying it was actually just putting lubricant on the threads. %) My '97 Z-24 Turbo (2.4 Twin-Cam relative to the Quad-4) also had repetitive bolt-loosening -in my case it was the clutch pressure-plate bolts that kept walking out. I noticed some years used split lock-washers, mine did not have them, possibly left off by a previous installer. I ended up drilling a large hole in the transaxle bell-housing so I could access the bolts without removing the tranny and installed lock-washers and ditched the chemical, problem permanently solved.

Some years do call for a different tightening procedure on the clutch housing, a two-step torquing sequence and a 30-degree rotation beyond that. According to one of my books, the Quads' flywheel-to-crankshaft bolts should be torqued to 22 ft-lbs, then a 45 degree rotation.


That is different as well. What year GM service book do you have? Is it a haynes book?
I'm also interested because I have a 90 GTZ with the QUAD4 and in the event I ever have to do this job I want to make sure its correct so I don't have these issues.

I agree, locktite gets old, I only buy a little tube and I buy new every time I have to do a job that needs it.

Now you mention it, my 88 Beretta GT did have split lock washers on the pressure plate to flywheel bolts. However the flywheel to crank bolts did not.
I don't recall doing a 45 degree on my v6, I will check my 90 book again to see if it has anything different for a quad4 Vs a v6, but the clutch section is only a few pages and doesn't list anything engine specific.


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Re: 1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

Postby Rettax3 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:10 pm

GT_Indy wrote:That is different as well. What year GM service book do you have? Is it a haynes book?
I'm also interested because I have a 90 GTZ with the QUAD4 and in the event I ever have to do this job I want to make sure its correct so I don't have these issues.
Now you mention it, my 88 Beretta GT did have split lock washers on the pressure plate to flywheel bolts. However the flywheel to crank bolts did not.
I don't recall doing a 45 degree on my v6, I will check my 90 book again to see if it has anything different for a quad4 Vs a v6, but the clutch section is only a few pages and doesn't list anything engine specific.

Yes, that info was pulled from Haynes -I have multiple service books, including factory for the '95, but that won't help here since the Quad wasn't available in the L-Body in '95. Quads definitely use different torque specs than the V-6s. And you are right again -I have NEVER seen lock-washers on the flywheel-to-crank bolts.


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Re: 1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

Postby GT_Indy » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:25 pm

I'm thinking its for the v6 and both I4's for clutch and flywheel in my 90 Book because so far I only see it in section 7C of the book and it doesn't specify anything different based on engine.
I will look again later.

I do not own a later year service book except for a 96 dealer book set so I dont know if they changed these specs on later year Berettas for the quad4.


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Re: 1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

Postby woody90gtz » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:25 am

That is strange. I use red on flywheel bolts. It's "permanent" but I've never had a problem getting them back out with just an impact (and no heat).

My SBC had star lock washers on the flywheel bolts, but it was assembled by the previous owner. I don't know if they did stock.

Either way I would still be very suspicious about something not laying flat for some reason...whether it be warpage or debris, etc. It really shouldn't need the thread locker.


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Re: 1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

Postby GT_Indy » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:21 am

woody90gtz wrote:That is strange. I use red on flywheel bolts. It's "permanent" but I've never had a problem getting them back out with just an impact (and no heat).

My SBC had star lock washers on the flywheel bolts, but it was assembled by the previous owner. I don't know if they did stock.

Either way I would still be very suspicious about something not laying flat for some reason...whether it be warpage or debris, etc. It really shouldn't need the thread locker.


I wonder if he is using an aluminum flywheel.


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Re: 1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

Postby DanteGTZ » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:13 am

Stock flywheel, no aluminum for me. With the help of heavywoody, we got it all back together this weekend. The bolts were completely loose and required no tools to remove, FWIW.

First off, as best I can tell, the flywheel bolt pattern (at least on a Quad) is 'keyed' in that it can only bolt up one way. I don't know if that's normal for most cars, but on my Quad and (2) flywheels, the holes only seem to line up one way. So, bearing that in mind, let's continue.

When my bolts backed out in Biloxi 2015, I (a) had not used Loctite of any kind when I torqued them down over a year earlier and (b) can't remember what specs I used, so I may have been incorrect out of the gate. When we removed the trans and flywheel, we noticed that there appears to be some pitting (from the flywheel smacking the crank) on the back of the flywheel. We added loctite, reinstalled and it did perfectly fine for 3+ years.

Since I was installing a new clutch, I wanted to have a freshly resurfaced flywheel to go with it so I had a spare flywheel machined. Note: the crank mounting surface of this flywheel was perfect, no pitting, nothing. I removed the old flywheel and bolted this new flywheel up but didn't think much of the crank surface.

FFWD to last weekend. When we removed this 'new' flywheel after it loosened we noticed that familiar pitting on the back of the mounting surface and some high spots on the crankshaft (where the flywheel material had transferred to the crank. Remember how I said the bolt holes were 'keyed' and would only align 1 way? Well, I think that happened was the original flywheel (the one that loosened in Biloxi) had deposited material on the end of the crankshaft, but had aligned properly and the contours on the end of the flywheel surface mated up to the deposits on the crankshaft... When I installed a 'new' flywheel a couple weeks ago, I bet that the high spots on the crank were (a) preventing the flywheel from sitting down all the way and (b) caused the system to be out of balance.

I had the 2015 (old) flywheel machined again and had them also machine the crank mating surface (very very little) to ensure it was flat. We sanded the high spots on the crank down to ensure everything was once again - FLAT.

So far the car is back together and running fine but we'll know more once I get brave enough to get higher up in the rev range (which seems to activate the loosening). Oh, and this time around I used ARP flywheel bolts as well.


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Re: 1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

Postby GT_Indy » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:34 am

Yah sounds like it wasnt perfectly flat due to the obstruction.
I wonder if the bearing for the shaft coming out of the trans is okay after that, do you think it incured some wear?
Someone mentioned to me that there was a quad with an aluminum flywheel that was having trouble where the bolts were backing out and I didnt know if it was yours.

Thats just 1 more thing we all have to look out for I guess. Maybe the flywheel was made of cheap material?


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Re: 1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

Postby DanteGTZ » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:36 pm

GT_Indy wrote:Yah sounds like it wasnt perfectly flat due to the obstruction.
I wonder if the bearing for the shaft coming out of the trans is okay after that, do you think it incured some wear?


I don't think the transmission itself incurred any damage as a result of the flywheel issues. I suppose it could have, but everything seems very normal and the shaft didn't have any play when we inspected things when it was out of the car.

Someone mentioned to me that there was a quad with an aluminum flywheel that was having trouble where the bolts were backing out and I didnt know if it was yours.

Thats just 1 more thing we all have to look out for I guess. Maybe the flywheel was made of cheap material?


Robert Spring has had some persistent flywheel bolt issues with his heavily modified Quad4. I haven't talked to him about it in a week or so and I'm not sure where things are at currently but he is running an aluminum flywheel and has had bolts sheer completely off with almost no run time. Very curious...


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Re: 1993 Quad4 GTZ: Project WTF

Postby GT_Indy » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:18 pm

DanteGTZ wrote:
GT_Indy wrote:Yah sounds like it wasnt perfectly flat due to the obstruction.
I wonder if the bearing for the shaft coming out of the trans is okay after that, do you think it incured some wear?


I don't think the transmission itself incurred any damage as a result of the flywheel issues. I suppose it could have, but everything seems very normal and the shaft didn't have any play when we inspected things when it was out of the car.


That is good to hear. That would not have been good if the trans got any damage.

DanteGTZ wrote:
GT_Indy wrote:Someone mentioned to me that there was a quad with an aluminum flywheel that was having trouble where the bolts were backing out and I didnt know if it was yours.

Thats just 1 more thing we all have to look out for I guess. Maybe the flywheel was made of cheap material?


Robert Spring has had some persistent flywheel bolt issues with his heavily modified Quad4. I haven't talked to him about it in a week or so and I'm not sure where things are at currently but he is running an aluminum flywheel and has had bolts sheer completely off with almost no run time. Very curious...


The only things I can think of is the bolts might be over torqued and stretched, bolts might be bottomed out, the crank/flywheel isn't a true flat surface, or the bolts might not be good quality.
I've read about people getting an expert machine shop to machine the crank and flywheel with dowels to help relieve the bolts of the shear forces, that could be a possibility.

Being an aluminum flywheel I wonder if aluminum creep is happening (I know Aluminum can dent easily), where the metal deforms under the bolt heads and it becomes loose enough where the bolts can shear off. (Because the friction between the flywheel and crank gets reduced).
I wonder if he needs something like this made of strong steel to help clamp the aluminum flywheel to the crank:
plate.jpg


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