January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Tell us about your Beretta and Post an Image
User avatar
3X00-Modified
Administrator
Posts: 10664
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:18 am
Location: Plainfield CT
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 46 times

January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Postby 3X00-Modified » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:09 am

Finally got working and made some progress now that everything is mostly setup in my garage.

Pics of the teardown.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

I'm pretty close to dropping the transmission and then I will be pulling the engine. So far the EP looks to need some attention after 2 years in this car of abuse and 30k on the clutches. I hope the rest of the inside of the trans is a direct reflection of how red the fluid still was, I was quite impressed with how clean it was, so hopefully that's a good sign.

I was also pleased with the stove... I got home around 3:30 or 4 and started it, and I was out there at around 4:30, obviously then it was still chilly, but by 5:30 it was quite comfortable to work in there... My hands weren't cold and if I did get a chill I could just walk over and warm up easily. But by 6 it was significantly warmer in there than it was outside... So I figure if I go to work out there on the weekend if I fire off the stove at 6 in the morning come in, do stuff around the house, eat something and then go out the garage will be quite comfortable...

And to get this result wit still no insulation at all I'm impressed and happy. I can't wait till I insulate it.



User avatar
Money pit Beretta
Registered User
Posts: 6353
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:36 am
Location: Kansas
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Postby Money pit Beretta » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:01 am

You should call it dream land. Most of us don't have that kind of room and for sure don't have heat. Your starting to make want a 3500 upper again by the way. Not that I need one! What are you going to do to the engine?
And a cover too? What a lucky car! I know, good paint.
I almost bought a turn key kit of that Type 65 Coupe. It was 15k and could do 200mph, Factory Five sells them. I would have been dead though or in jail, way too fast for me. I bought the Cav for 8k. I can go WOT at any time and the cops just laugh at me.


keep'em flying!

User avatar
3X00-Modified
Administrator
Posts: 10664
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:18 am
Location: Plainfield CT
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 46 times

Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Postby 3X00-Modified » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:42 am

Those photos are from Factory Five... Its local to here and I went on a tour of the facility. I saw the orange coupe in the R&D department all torn apart getting worked on. Pretty cool to say you've touched a car in one of the photos ;)

Engine is getting a run through for wear inspection, SBC 350 Cam bearings are going in this block, and I'm porting the heads, lower and upper intake completely, and installing MLS head-gaskets. Also the transmission is getting a close inspection.

Also I need to re-cut and re-align the header rear crossover tube... It didn't turn out as good as I wanted it to, and I never did this set on a motor, I did them in the car a long time ago... Now its time to tweak them in so it doesn't leak there :)

I'm actually planning on going back to a 3100 large port upper intake too... I like this look better

Image



User avatar
Money pit Beretta
Registered User
Posts: 6353
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:36 am
Location: Kansas
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Postby Money pit Beretta » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:22 am

Oh man that would be cool to go there! Damn your lucky.
Wow, I never touch an engine unless there is something wrong with it. Do you have a link to those head gaskets? I'd like to check them out.
I thought you had those headers all worked out. Your going back to the BP 3100? Last I heard a ported 3500 upper would out flow them. I would think that you of all people would need that extra flow. The 3500 does look like some sort of grill. :lol: Still, some of us dream of the Pace Car. I have thought that the 3500 upper doesn't have a good transition from the neck to the plenum. On that I could be way off(I did hear that the flow to all cylinders is closer to equal). If you get some testing numbers please post them, I'd like to hear about it.


keep'em flying!

User avatar
IsaacHayes
Registered User
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:32 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Postby IsaacHayes » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:37 am

Yeah that must be nice to have more than 5" of space on the front bumper and rear bumper between walls... The 3100/3400 plenums do look more "racy" but I like the unique look of the 3500. reminds me of early 90's GM or something. I like mine being different so people are like "wtf is that". Too bad putting up insulation is going to cover up that wood. It looks nice.

Why a 3100 plenum and not 3400? Don't want to advertise what is really in the car?

MPB: The 3500 plenum has more to it than just flow. Bigger plenum space, etc. I've heard it makes less peak HP but you pick up a broader/flatter power band with it. One theory is that by having the neck open up in the center instead of the end is so that 5&6 get air flow last so they run a little richer since they run hot anyway as they are last to get cooled. The LX9 has oil squirters on those 2 pistons only as well, so it would make sense. The 3100/3400 plenum's get air to 5 & 6 first. Another theory is that it helps make the air flow more equal to all cylinders. The Equinox 3400 has a plenum like the 3500, only the TB neck is on TOP of the plenum and opens up right on the top center of the plenum, so that would point more towards the equal flow theory. But the LX9 plenum has to fit under a car hood not an SUV hood, so it is a compromise.

It probably doesn't make a huge difference in overall power, but possibly you can feel it in drive-ability. I know with my intakes on the car, the car no longer has that "veee-takkk" kick at 3 grand, it just pulls whenever you open the throttle. From a stop till red line you can feel the same amount of "pull" from the seat pushing on you. Not some sudden increase along the RPM range.

And yeah, my 3500 plenum paint job was inspired by the pace car. :) I almost went with all black, with a gen2 valve cover with the chevy text painted there. But the coolant pipe goes across it and I wasn't sure if that would clear or if it would clear the rockers.


Image Image 2010 project (click pic)
1994 3100 BERETTA. 200,000+ miles.
16.0 @ 84.41mph when stock. Now ???
Original L82 w/LA1, LX9, & LX5 parts!!!

soon to be OBD1 tuned...

User avatar
3X00-Modified
Administrator
Posts: 10664
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:18 am
Location: Plainfield CT
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 46 times

Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Postby 3X00-Modified » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:44 am

Only numbers I have would be track times, I had a difference of .1 at the strip and that could have been due to wheel spin during the run since I was running street tires then.

Headgasket link (Much better to run these when running nitrous)
http://wot-tech.com/shop/all/3500-lx9-m ... d_248.html

Also a 3500 upper flows less than a 3400 upper stock... When you port the 3500 upper then it supposedly flows more than a ported 3400 one, I have not seen this since both of mine were slightly ported. Only thing you port on the 3500 is a slight lip where the opening is, there are no runners... so just gasket match and bell the inside edge and your done......

Either way I'll see what I can do with the 3400 but I heard that yes the way the 3500 is setup with the neck going to the middle of the plenum before it opens up, that you could starve cylinders 5 and 6 of nitrous unless your doing a direct port setup... that's the only concern I have, but if that design equalizes the flow of air, then I don't see why it wouldn't do the same for the nitrous.

I'm not dead set on which one I'll run, but I do like the look and the false advertisement of the 3100 upper plenum :)

Oh and when you beat on it as much as I do, you tend to take stuff apart to just be sure its still ok, and you don't wait till something breaks because when it does it causes more damage.

IsaacHayes wrote:Why a 3100 plenum and not 3400? Don't want to advertise what is really in the car?

Duhhh... LOL

Insulation will not cover all that up... I'm using 2" thick foam inserts to go in the pockets around the post and beams, and then I will probably cover that with some rough cut boards, OR a wood looking panel, depending on which is cheaper. Only part that may get covered is the ceiling, I was thinking of just putting roll out staple in fiberglass up there, and just leave that exposed... because that's a lot of work to go back and cover that up. Either way right now EVERY seem of the outside boards you can feel a breeze, And if its windy when it snows, you can see some dusting getting in through those cracks. Its rough cut with a small 1/8th" gap between the boards and then 2" wide furring strips outside to cover the gaps... not a perfect seal. When done all the beams will still be exposed.

That's also why all the electrical I have done is neat and perfect, and stapled to the beams where it wont get covered or in the way of an insulation project



User avatar
IsaacHayes
Registered User
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:32 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Postby IsaacHayes » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:05 pm

I think the concern was not distribution of air, but of fuel, as the fuel could come out of suspension and would be hard to make a 180* turn back to 5&6....

I don't think you are fooling anyone with the cowl and lope Jon... LOL they will know stuff is done to it...

I think you should decide on what compression and pistons you are going to run. Otherwise you are wasting money on gaskets taking the motor apart so many times. Take it apart once, port, put in pistons and MLS gaskets all at once.... I don't think you can reuse MLS head gaskets can you? LOL


Image Image 2010 project (click pic)
1994 3100 BERETTA. 200,000+ miles.
16.0 @ 84.41mph when stock. Now ???
Original L82 w/LA1, LX9, & LX5 parts!!!

soon to be OBD1 tuned...

User avatar
3X00-Modified
Administrator
Posts: 10664
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:18 am
Location: Plainfield CT
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 46 times

Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Postby 3X00-Modified » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:22 pm

Did you read the MLS gasket info... That's the whole point they are REUSABLE.

I'm sticking with stock pistons. I need to get the power out of the car that I was originally intending to get out of it... I think I'm not there yet. Also right now the only gaskets I have that are not reusable is the timing cover set... and those are only like 14 bux... so in the end its not going to cost much to rip it apart a year or so from now and do more to it, when I have more money too... I'm going to be scraping by with the wood stove installation, EP freshen, and who knows what else I find in the trans... Pistons and rings, even in stock form may be pushing it.

I also do not think the higher CR will help me with the addition of nitrous on top of that... I'm just asking to bend a rod, or explode a piston. If I'm going to do it, I'll do it right and buy Forged Pistons for the CR that I want exactly so I know it wont be too much. And obviously with the price of the forged ones that's a year or so away.

Yes I know I'm not fooling anyone but with the look on their face when I open the hood and its only a little ole 3.1L they are like WTF... Yeah I know it is a 3.4 but whats .3L when someone it just looking at it... lol

Engine building is an art and a hobby for me... if I do it once and that's it, I'll go crazy I'll have nothing to do... this is something I do for fun and enjoy to push further each time, but ONLY after closely inspecting my work to ensure its lasting like any other engine builder would... Plus I have not reached the potential of this setup yet, so why change it so much, the pistons were just an idea till I saw what CR they would put me at... and since I have a "boost" cam I really don't think I should eliminate the nitrous unless that's replaced with a better n/a grind.

I'm just going with the MLS to ensure I will not pop a head gasket this year at the strip, That was my biggest worry at Bfest this year even though the nitrous nozzle I had ended up being defective, also that is the only problem I've ever had while running nitrous so if I can eliminate that possibility its well worth it. 150 shot? ;)



User avatar
Barry
Global Moderator
Posts: 1855
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:11 pm
Location: Hatfield Pa
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Postby Barry » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:09 pm

I'll be dropping my car off next week, the rear disk parts are in the trunk. No rush



User avatar
Barry
Global Moderator
Posts: 1855
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:11 pm
Location: Hatfield Pa
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Postby Barry » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:13 pm

On a seious note, it's people like you that actually help the development of these motors by ripping it apart again after mods to see how everything is going. Most jusst wait for a problem and by that time it's too late.

Just like the UDP thing, nobody ever took a udp motor apart to see what it looks like compared to stock.



User avatar
IsaacHayes
Registered User
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:32 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Postby IsaacHayes » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:33 pm

Whoa, they are? I didn't know that. I just knew they were durable and what they are made of. Yes custom would be best for pistons, as you could not only run the CR you want, but you can have good quench as well.

Yeah, it's cool though you are being a guinea pig in a way and finding out the results of things for us. SuperDave took off his UDP after he spun a bearing in his 3500. With that much power/etc having more crank flex is not something to risk.


Image Image 2010 project (click pic)
1994 3100 BERETTA. 200,000+ miles.
16.0 @ 84.41mph when stock. Now ???
Original L82 w/LA1, LX9, & LX5 parts!!!

soon to be OBD1 tuned...

User avatar
Money pit Beretta
Registered User
Posts: 6353
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:36 am
Location: Kansas
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Postby Money pit Beretta » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:26 am

Are stock pistons cast? I have always wanted some hypereutectic for a street car build. Well, guess I run the UDP on the stock engine and try to sell it when I build the new engine. Has anyone used a Fluidampr on one of our engines?
Looks like I stick with the 3400 upper after what as been said here. Hey 3X00, why are you not running spacers between your intakes?
My car is a DD, so there is no way for me to take it apart just to see what's going on in there(also it has 150K on it). I look to people like 3X00 for info on what to use and what not to use.

What about longer rods? I've heard nothing about them. In the old days people would ditch the SBC 5.7 rods and get some 6's.


keep'em flying!

User avatar
3X00-Modified
Administrator
Posts: 10664
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:18 am
Location: Plainfield CT
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 46 times

Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Postby 3X00-Modified » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:24 am

fluid dampener would be awesome if someone made one that fit our engine... Also by no means do I say to stick with a 3400 or 3100 upper plenum... I just haven't seen many gains with this 3500 one that makes me want to keep it. There are intake spacers on the current motor yes... look closely, but I also do not find those to be necessary or even vital to performance.

Stock pistons in these engines are Hypereutectic from what I've been told. Either way those have a tendency to explode if anything goes wrong.

Barry as soon as I'm done, your welcome any time... lol, I did my brake upgrade in my old garage at the apartment with only one power tool, the angle grinder, and I was stealing power from the garage door opener outlet since there weren't any in there. :) So as long as you have the brackets modified and the brake lines the swap is SIMPLE.

I scratched my UDP after I heard what was going on with Dave as well, and then also proved my own damages by seeing what happened to the OEM replacement cam gear components.



User avatar
Money pit Beretta
Registered User
Posts: 6353
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:36 am
Location: Kansas
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Postby Money pit Beretta » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:13 am

Oops, looks like it was ATI that makes them. Damn things are not cheap($400). http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATI-917140/
The pistons blow up? I thought they were between cast and forged. Well I won't be using a power adder, so I should be ok.
What would you say is best for NA, 3500 or 3400 upper? If I get a chance I'll get some spacers. To help more air to flow under the upper(also to block some heat transfer) and for the extra velocity.


keep'em flying!

User avatar
woody90gtz
Registered User
Posts: 4044
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 8:45 pm
Location: Walton, NY
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 7 times
Contact:

Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)

Postby woody90gtz » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:28 am

That ATI has no grooves for the serpentine system.

Jon, you had problems with the OEM timing set with a stock cam from the UDP?


Image
91 "SS" 3400/5spd - EP, FFP, TCE, SPEC, DSS, S&S, OBD1, 13s? GEARHEAD dezign


Return to “Members Rides”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests