Front hub fail

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ifixalot
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Front hub fail

Postby ifixalot » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:52 pm

It's been about two years since I rebuilt the trans on my Lumina mini van. At that time, I replaced the original hubs with new since I had
over 150k on the originals. All has been well until my ABS started acting up. I inspected and found the brakes getting rusty on the inside of the rotors so I did a complete brake job, new everything. A couple weeks later, I notice a rumbling sound at certain speeds. It would start at 35 mph then fade and get stronger at 55 mph. It seemed to be coming more from the driver's side. So since the brakes were the last thing done, I thought it was something to do with that. We had driven on a road with fresh gravel and the rumbling started just after that. I read that the dust could foul up the pads and so I cleaned them and the rotors as well. It didn't help. I emailed the store where I bought the pads and asked if they had any other complaints. No was the answer but they were nice enough to give me new pads in exchange. The new pads didn't help. So I wondered about my new rotors. I swapped an old turned rotor for the newer one and it didn't help either. So I finally decided to try changing out the new hubs I put on two years and 12k miles ago. I first changed the drivers side and no more grumbling was heard. So I changed the other side as well as a precaution. The noise is gone but I still have trouble with the ABS which I will continue to sort out. But I wondered what the heck happened to the hubs so I knocked them apart. Here is a picture of the bearing race that has chunks missing. I have no idea what the heck caused this. They had plenty of grease left in them. The other one looked fine. I wonder could the gravel dust have gotten in and fouled them up or were they just cheap Chinese junk that won't last? Any ideas?
HPIM1461.JPG



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Re: Front hub fail

Postby 3X00-Modified » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:14 pm

Well what brand were they? but that does just look like cheap metal that was not properly hardened for a bearing race which results in it crumbling apart.



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Re: Front hub fail

Postby ifixalot » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:47 am

I do not know the brand. I bought them long prior to doing the trans.
I don't know if brand matters anymore since everything seems made in China,
India, Taiwan Etc.
I bought them off Ebay as spares to have, when/if one failed so I
decided to use them when I did the trans.
Ebay doesn't keep your history that far back.
They are hardened in the area where the ball bearings ride.
I can't scratch that surface with a file.
I put it out there in case others have run across the same thing.
I'm going to assume it has something to do with either dust from that
fresh gravel road getting in or damage from a bad pothole I don't remember hitting.



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Re: Front hub fail

Postby 3X00-Modified » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:52 am

That's poor metal forming, it may be surface hardened only and the hardened part de-laminated from the rest of the metal. And yes brand still matters on quite a few things. Timken and MOOG seem to be higher quality than basics you can get on ebay.



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Re: Front hub fail

Postby 3X00-Modified » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:44 pm

Proof is in the pudding...

New rear bearings for the Indy.

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Re: Front hub fail

Postby EPfiffner » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:42 pm

Ugh those are a lot of work to replace after 2yrs/12k. I'm impressed that you are fixing the ABS! The dash light on my blazer has been on for at least 5yrs, I just ignore it.
I'm glad to see the Timken's are USA made (at least that part #), Timken was based in my hometown.



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Re: Front hub fail

Postby 3X00-Modified » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:46 pm

It's funny when you question the ABS, there has been a lot of discussion about that lately on the forums and many of the non believers who made fun of me for sticking with it and keeping it are actually regretting removing it for the simple fact that now if and when they have to panic brake with their upgraded brakes they are finding that the car just locks up and slides now and switches ends with itself. Tyler almost hit a deer and did a 180 just trying to avoid it and luckily did not damage the car, and Eric Wood talked about how he does not feel the slightest bit in control when he mashes the brake. I don't know what Tyler is going to do but I know Eric was talking about integrating an ABS system a Beretta back into his somehow. His most recent rear bearing purchase included ABS bearings. I'm actually wondering if this is something I may take on in the future on the Indy when I finally get the drive line swap done.



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Re: Front hub fail

Postby ifixalot » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:30 pm

Changing the hubs is just 4 bolts more than a brake job so it's not bad at all on the mini van.
As far as ABS, I can take it or leave it but I don't like when something doesn't work right. I can cover the ABS light with tape
but I know it's lurking underneath. My 88 doesn't have ABS that doesn't bother me. My daughter has an accident which she felt
could have had a better outcome with ABS so she wanted her next car to have it. But the car she found and wanted to buy, didn't have it.
She bought it anyway.
I try and buy made in USA parts but nowadays, I've seen "made in the USA" "from components sourced from global suppliers".
I even got an item that had a big USA on the box to look like it was made in USA but you had to read the fine print to see it was made in Mexico. You can do a search for where Moog stuff is made and find it's made all over the world. Try and get a good brake rotor or drum
these days, you can't they don't exist.



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Re: Front hub fail

Postby 3X00-Modified » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:47 am

I have yet to have any issues with the high end Centric, Power Stop, or Raybestos brand rotors.



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Re: Front hub fail

Postby ifixalot » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:29 am

The issue I've had with all the rotors is rust, even when they are just sitting. Everybody took the chrome, or something, out of the rotors and they will rust even sitting inside my garage. The brake job I did on my mini van was because the inside of the rotors were 50% heavy rust, I still had 50% pad left. I got these rotors at O'reilly for $36 each four years ago. It's the same for all the rotors out there, they rust. It may be because I only drive a couple thousand miles a year on my cars. But on my 80's cars, with original GM rotors, I get no rust whatsoever. When I took the original 1988 Beretta rotors in to O'reilly for them to turn, they said they could not cut them, not because they were too thin, they said the iron was too tough and would wear down the bit before it finished one side. They offered me new rotors for the same price as turning. I had no choice. I don't buy that many drums but one time when I bought drums at Autozone, I put them on and had a pulsing pedal so I had to take them back and exchange for another set of drums.



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Re: Front hub fail

Postby ifixalot » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:03 pm

Both Drums.jpg
Pix of how the drum is so rusted.
I milled it and it is still over the discard thickness.
OReilly's said it couldn't be resurfaced. Too much rust they said, it won't clean up.
I keep these for the next brake job.
Drum on mill.jpg



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Re: Front hub fail

Postby 3X00-Modified » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:21 pm

That's how every rotor has rusted my entire life of working on daily driven vehicles, I feel like nothing has changed... Everything I have on my Beretta's have little to no rust on the rotors like that because they never see the sand and salt in winter, which that use has increased so actually that may be what your seeing a result of, vs the quality of the parts changing.

The line that O'reilly's gave you was to get you to buy new rotors instead of them doing extra work, clearly it worked. I highly doubt they can't turn a rotor because the Iron is harder than a carbide bit...



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Re: Front hub fail

Postby Money pit Beretta » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:56 pm

Had good luck with Wagner rotors so far. Freaken O'Reilly's charges as much as a new rotor to turn them in this area. Just another way to get out of work.
On the GF's car Firestone put some cheap dusty pads and junk rotors. One of those rotors looked like yours and it was also on the back side. I've never seen a GM rotor do that. All Wager stuff on both cars at this time. They will be checked after this winter. The amount of salt thrown around here is crazy. If they don't use it they lose it next year, so they lay it on thick even when it's not needed. Piles everywhere! So much that you could slide on it.


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Re: Front hub fail

Postby ifixalot » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:25 am

3X00-Modified wrote:The line that O'reilly's gave you was to get you to buy new rotors instead of them doing extra work, clearly it worked. I highly doubt they can't turn a rotor because the Iron is harder than a carbide bit...


In one case, they gave me new rotors for the price of turning which was, I believe, $10 each and new rotors would have been $22 each.
In the other case, I ran across a set on Centric rotors off Ebay for $50 shipped. I bought them a few months back because I knew I'd eventually need them. Rotors for my van are $36 each. I didn't buy new rotors that time from Oreilly's so, clearly it didn't work.
They told me also, that they had this new brake lathe and they felt it may have something to do with that so that also figured into why they gave me new rotors.
There are many grades of carbide. I used to use a Micrograin carbide but there was a C-5 and even lessor grades. It's possible that they had a lower grade carbide. Carbide is not the ultimate cutting tool either. In high speed CNC machines they use diamond impregnated cutting tools and even then, if they don't use the exactly correct feed rate, the bit will get damaged.



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Re: Front hub fail

Postby ifixalot » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:35 pm

Looks like I finally found the source of my ABS woes.
HPIM1477.JPG




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