Buick 283

Want to know how to get more out of your Beretta? Or have a mod you would like to share?
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88_GTU
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Re: Buick 283

Postby 88_GTU » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:04 pm

3X00-Modified wrote:to do forged internals on these engines is not cheap... A set of pistons starts at 849.99 at least diamond pistons.



Yeah, I have them. I didn't say it was uber cheap. I spent $2200 at WOT tech for the bottom end, cam, head studs and so on. I should have specified that you can actually get decent performance from a stock motor with just upping the boost or swapping to a larger more efficient turbo. Building the engine adds big $$$ no matter which engine you build. My mostly stock 3500 put down 189 on an overly rich tune which is close to the stock TGP. Same starting point basically. Just giving another option.

J


88 GTU 5spd 67k black
89 GTU 3500/5spd swapped 79k white
08 TBSS LS2 AWD

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Re: Buick 283

Postby nocutt » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:16 pm

You guys are here still debating why a 3800 equipped beretta should show results via your own rules? when in fact the swap itself goes beyond "your rules"...any swap that does not use the designated or original engine is a mod to be beheld imo. We are here trying to enjoy our proverbial lemonade; 1/4 or dyno # are a very small...part of the equation ask anyone who has done a swap...whether they deem it "simple" or "difficult"...if #'s was part of their equation then more power to them....it was not necessarily mine, I completed my own 3800 swap way back in ~98-99; there was ZERO, ZIP, ZILTCH...performance mods for a 3800 n/a back in those days...today the aftermarket for these engines have blossomed and yes there is an aftermarket no matter how small the niche is perceived to be...it exist in comparison to when I completed my swap.

Now I understand in a forum, a little bench racing is necessary to create polarization...it has always existed with the advent of 90degreev6 engines slapped into FWD drivetrains...it is not necessarily a bad thing; but it also has to be placed in its proper context. Most 3800 berettas have NO TEMPLATE...NONE! worse the niche is so small and most are still custom off swaps...I am not sure if any two look alike but I have been out of the loop for a while so maybe the 'mind has caught on to the body'. It is a big deal, this imo is the reason perhapswhy there are still no technical, reproducible and quantifiable method...ALL swaps are very different in their approach. I myself do not care so much about technical details per se and my now defunct thread showed just possibilities. It is NOT for everyone at least my approach isn't, just looking back...this is absolutely not to say, I don't have numbers...I do, but it is for my own personal growth not to stroke my ego nor any other person(s)...i care more about road racing and this is where I put emphasis on modifications.

BTW I do not necessary agree there is a limit on useable power in this platform, I will agree though there is a point of marginal return(s)...especially on the street where one should not be attempting to break records...the whole car as a unit is how power is planted and how one chooses to do that is perhaps the crux.

If I had to do this again...I will use the current 3800S3 supercharged with the new 4t65e-HD. Chunk the SC, for a turbo...tune it, run it, move from there. If one cares for 4XXhp in these configuration is where they will find it easier and reliable to make...the weak link is still the transmission but 65e-HD is still a very good choice. I don't know much about (GM) manuals...
In any event as already mentioned; with good mechanical skills and good connections (if you do not have access to tools...I did not, for the most part)...it will be cheap(er) to do your work

BTW to the OP, the reason why you want to do a 3800 swap should come from within...yes things outside can be a motivation, but ultimately that decision should be well understood...technical abilities are a requirement because like I already stated the niche is small; you may not have a lot to fall back on...
peace...

Hi Jon, woody, Asylum...



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Re: Buick 283

Postby 3X00-Modified » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:23 pm

Hello hello stranger :)

Your opinion is completely Biased... HAHAHA ;)



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Re: Buick 283

Postby nocutt » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:19 pm

3X00-Modified wrote:Hello hello stranger :)

Your opinion is completely Biased... HAHAHA ;)


...says the guy with a pink car LOL



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Re: Buick 283

Postby kellu » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:37 pm

So because the 3800 is like $3k and that's way out of my price range. Could anybody tell me the model name of the 3.4 DOHC? Example 3.1L L82. I wanna look up the pricing on a 3.4 like that to see if it's do-able. I also wanna see what cars it came stock in to see if I can pull it from a car at pick a part and do a rebuild.


1995 Beretta 3.1 SFI(Work in Progress)
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Rettax3
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Re: Buick 283

Postby Rettax3 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:15 pm

3.4 TDC (Twin Dual Cam -horrible name, should be DTC) DOHC = LQ1.

These are what it came in:
1991–1994 Chevrolet Lumina Z34 and the Euro 3.4 sedan
1991–1996 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
1991–1996 Pontiac Grand Prix
1995–1997 Chevrolet Monte Carlo Z34
1995–1997 Chevrolet Lumina LS
1997 Chevrolet Lumina LTZ
Look for VIN 'X' vehicles (like N/A 3800 Series II = VIN 'K', 3100 Berettas are VIN 'M', 3.1 MPFI Berettas are VIN 'T', etc.).

This engine has been mocked-up in a Cavvy engine-bay, it basically fits. It has never, to my knowledge, been installed in a Beretta before. I was hoping to put the one I have into my Z-26, but that hasn't happened yet, and is probably at least a couple of years off. You could have the first 3.4 DOHC Beretta here...


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26

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Re: Buick 283

Postby 3X00-Modified » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:07 am

Worst choice ever... Best they have is 215HP... Why bother with that much of an engine. Plus there is more aftermarket for the 3400/3500 than the DOHC 3.4 so you can easily surpass the HP of the DOHC and have a much easier swap. 3500 has 200hp stock BTW...



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Re: Buick 283

Postby Rettax3 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:27 am

3.4 DOHC has a much higher redline and is a totally rev-happy engine. It would be a unique swap too, for those of us who put things like that into the plus column. 3X00 swaps are great for the simplicity (if you already have the newer-style frame mounts, otherwise it is a PITA) and power-upgrade, but they have been done to death. My issue against the 3.4 TDC (aside from the asinine name) is the fact that it uses a timing belt. I hate timing belts -not because they are necessarily difficult or costly to change, but because it is a deliberately life-limited internal part essential to operation that leaves you stranded (or with severe engine-damage in some cases) when it goes out. Stupid. :x

For fabricators like me, who would rather build a set of headers than buy them, or who turbo-charge everything with less than 10:1 compression (I am exaggerating a little, BTW :roll: ), aftermarket support means nothing, and the lack of it is not a reason to put down an engine. And unless a 200 HP 3500 is criticized for too little power, why criticize the 3.4 for 'only' having 205-215? For street use, how much more HP does a Beretta need than 200 or 215? :pardon: (Notice I didn't ask how much more it wants... :wink: )

Honestly, I don't see it happening here though, for other reasons. :beer:


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26

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Re: Buick 283

Postby 3X00-Modified » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:09 am

Rettax3 wrote:And unless a 200 HP 3500 is criticized for too little power, why criticize the 3.4 for 'only' having 205-215?


I was simply comparing the HP because for less time and money you can surpass the 3.4 power level with a 3x00 swap.



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Re: Buick 283

Postby Rettax3 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:19 pm

3X00-Modified wrote:
Rettax3 wrote:And unless a 200 HP 3500 is criticized for too little power, why criticize the 3.4 for 'only' having 205-215?

I was simply comparing the HP because for less time and money you can surpass the 3.4 power level with a 3x00 swap.

I understand where you are coming from. I think that for 98% of the potential builders here, you are right (although I personally don't like the 3X00 series very much, I still have to acknowledge the positive attributes they deliver). Time-wise it is an obvious choice to avoid the 3.4 like the plague -I can't see this being a weekend swap. No one has documented a successful swap in an L-body that I've heard of, so there may be other issues involved, possibly even hood-clearance issues. I don't necessarily agree with you about the cost though -the 3.4 can be bolted in (with custom mounts, IIRC a relocated alternator with custom brackets and an A/C delete) and produce up to 215 HP from the gate, and it may be possible to obtain the engine for cheaper than a 3500 engine. Then the 3500 has to be modded to make more than 215 -CAI, under-drive pulley, better exhaust and you are there -add the same features to the 3.4 and what do you have? 235 HP? Now the 3500 has to be bumped up some more... I think to add significant power to a 3500 so it walks away from the 3.4 it will take a bit more money.


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26

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Re: Buick 283

Postby SummitBalt08 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:41 am

I have been doing alot of reading on the LZ9. .. then there just happened to be a wrecked 09 Impala LTZ at the pick n pull yard by me with a low mileage LZ9 in it.. Nobody has swapped that into one of our era cars.. no J body, W body or L body etc etc..

Been thinking about picking the motor up and mocking it up in the parts car.. whats the worst thats going to happen? Mounts? Stand alone?

Its already been figured out how to delete the VVT from it


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Re: Buick 283

Postby woody90gtz » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:33 am

That's the 3900 right? Would be cool to put one in with a 6spd. Aside from the engine management part of it, the VVT would be a good thing. Good torque and good top end... The wife's Cruze has VVT and the torque it has down low is surprising for a 1.4, I can only imagine with a 3.9...


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Re: Buick 283

Postby SummitBalt08 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:35 am

Yep the 3900. I just don't have the extra money/time to mess with it right now. If I can find one in the future at a pick n pull yard during a half off sale I might pick one up...

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Re: Buick 283

Postby 3X00-Modified » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:50 am

Why delete the VVT... Get the harness and MAKE IT WORK! Same with DI, get the whole fuel system and retrofit the pump and stuff to work in our tanks... I don't know why people are afraid to try stuff like that.

I would if I wanted to go that route but I have enough I need to finish already with my direct port nitrous.



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Re: Buick 283

Postby Rettax3 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:25 pm

3X00-Modified wrote:Why delete the VVT... Get the harness and MAKE IT WORK! Same with DI, get the whole fuel system and retrofit the pump and stuff to work in our tanks... I don't know why people are afraid to try stuff like that.
I would if I wanted to go that route but I have enough I need to finish already with my direct port nitrous.

X2! (Except for nitrous -that stuff does scare me :wink: ) Why remove such a powerful technology? It isn't like EGR or air-injection or cats that are there for good reasons but have drawbacks. VVT is just good (so long as it works). I would try to circumvent the throttle-by-wire crap on the new engines when dropping it into an older car like ours, but VVT, DOD, variable intakes (like the 3900, and some Nissan engines since the '90s, for example) add power through increased efficiency, like a turbo-charger does. I don't know how much of the 240 HP rating you loose on the 3900 by losing the VVT, but the Nissan VH45DE goes from 278 HP to ~310 by plugging in the VVT back in.


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26


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