Buick 283

Want to know how to get more out of your Beretta? Or have a mod you would like to share?
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Re: Buick 283

Postby Asylum » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:13 am

I have still yet to see any performance numbers or ET's on a 3800 swap.


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Re: Buick 283

Postby woody90gtz » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:16 am

I don't know about the Regal, but you can get the Buick Verano with a 2.0L DOHC turbo and F40 6spd manual. It's the same platform as the Cruze and there is a guy getting stuff together for an almost plug-n-play swap in to his car. He might even have it done by now, I haven't checked in a while.


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Re: Buick 283

Postby 3X00-Modified » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:31 pm

Asylum wrote:I have still yet to see any performance numbers or ET's on a 3800 swap.


Agreed... everyone that says it's easy and so powerful has never given any concrete proof of that.

And there are no detailed photos of what has to be done to make it fit... just some statements which don't illustrate what's necessary very well.



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Re: Buick 283

Postby Asylum » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:55 pm

It's something I don't quite understand. This is suppose to be a performance/HP swap.
That is fine. I had the very first 3500 Beretta and couldn't wait to get the damn thing to a track.
First run as I recall was a disappointing 15.02.
Finally got it to run mid-13's consistently N/A and it was all documented on here and elsewhere.
Took time, a lot of help, and a whack of money, but the good and the bad was here for all to see.
Jon is the same.

C'mon 3800 guys. Let's see some numbers!!

Cheers


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'92 3500 GT gone and not really missed. It was fun. Documented 13.47 N/A.

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Re: Buick 283

Postby Rettax3 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:02 pm

Asylum wrote:It's something I don't quite understand. This is suppose to be a performance/HP swap.
That is fine. I had the very first 3500 Beretta and couldn't wait to get the damn thing to a track.
First run as I recall was a disappointing 15.02.
Finally got it to run mid-13's consistently N/A and it was all documented on here and elsewhere.
Took time, a lot of help, and a whack of money, but the good and the bad was here for all to see.
Jon is the same.
C'mon 3800 guys. Let's see some numbers!!
Cheers

I don't race my car, although it would be fun to take it up to a track. My lack of LSD and sticky tires are what slow my car down for 0-60 and 1/4-mile times, that and probably me -I'm a good driver and I know my cars, but I don't practice launches. It is safe to say my car will cream any stock, production Beretta, Quad or otherwise. The engine cost me nothing, and was as easy (or easier) for me as a 3X00 conversion would have been in my older car (as I would not drop in a stock 3400, so consider mods I would have to do to get what I would want out of it). I can't say it is the fastest daily-driveable Beretta, but it is fast enough that it needs no apologies. It will annihilate my '89 Camaro RS with the Police Special F/I 350 (the five-speed conversion, headers, and Flowmaster exhaust help it, the highway gears in the Posi nine-bolt BW axle don't) which SHOULD be almost one second faster than the GTZ, so consider that as at least a base-line of reference. :pardon: Though not totally unique, it is rare, especially with the five-speed (now I would say unique with the six-speed) I swapped into it, that counts for something too. I guess that was really more of the point for me than performance numbers.
woody90gtz wrote:I don't know about the Regal, but you can get the Buick Verano with a 2.0L DOHC turbo and F40 6spd manual. It's the same platform as the Cruze and there is a guy getting stuff together for an almost plug-n-play swap in to his car. He might even have it done by now, I haven't checked in a while.
That has to be the same engine they were talking about offering in the Regal. That would be a fun drive-train in a Beretta. :good: I still prefer bigger, torquier engines, but the numbers on these little turbo engines do add up pretty well.
3X00-Modified wrote:
Asylum wrote:I have still yet to see any performance numbers or ET's on a 3800 swap.

Agreed... everyone that says it's easy and so powerful has never given any concrete proof of that.
And there are no detailed photos of what has to be done to make it fit... just some statements which don't illustrate what's necessary very well.


I think I'm the only one saying how easy it is... And I did have illustrated proof of how easy and straight-forward the swap is back on bstuff showing EXACTLY what was necessary, if you recall. I would be happy to replace the thread on here (I'll post some of the more essential aspects on here when I finish my write-up on the F40 six-speed swap I did on the car), but the computer I had everything on was stolen last year, and it didn't seem to help anyone back then anyway -those willing and capable of performing the swap already either had their own ideas or simply decided not to. :pardon: As for how powerful it is, well, just look it up anywhere you want -the Series-II L67 stomps all over the LA1, and makes about 20% more power than the LX9 (3500) too. ANY engine can be built up for better-than-stock power, so don't even go there -if we are talking base engine vs base engine, leave it there.

I don't believe for one second that the 3800 is necessarily the best way to go, but I will defend to the end that it is a valid conversion, relatively easy to do, and doesn't require much beyond basic swap-tools and know-how. Bottom line, if you don't like the engine, don't put it in your car. :pardon:


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26

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Re: Buick 283

Postby Asylum » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:10 pm

I'm NOT trying to be controversial at all.
It's a Beretta swap. That can only be a good thing!!!
And I could not care less how much power the 3800 makes in original applications.
You have to get it into a Beretta, get it to run right and then produce the facts.

I'm just absolutely curious about what one of these things runs.
My best before the mods was about 14.20 as I recall. That's just with tuning. I will have to look it up. But I am skeptical as hell a stock 3800 will run that quick.
Rollin kept threatening to get to the track, but I don't think he ever did, or at least posted about it.

No Bad, just show us something!

Otherwise you are NEVER going to convince me it's worth even considering over a 3500.

:beer:
Last edited by Asylum on Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Buick 283

Postby 3X00-Modified » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:40 pm

I consider myself very capable at modifying and customizing things to fit where they didn't before... For example I was the first to have a set of S&S headers modded to fit our bay with no clearance issues anywhere... and I would NEVER say it's an easy thing to do, yet all I had to do was cut the tube re-angle the headers and re-weld them then modify and re-design the collector side as well. Easy for me, yes, easy for someone else, NO... this is where I think the statements of "it's as easy as doing a 3X00 swap" is not quite a true statement for everyone.

So the point I'm trying to make is YES I would like to see all of the things you had to do to make this motor fit... Mounts you made where they are bolted to and how much engine flex/body flex you have. I remember one 3800 swap literally bending the radiator support back when it was on the dyno, I have no idea what happened to that car or the video but I remember seeing it one time. I also don't know what the numbers were.



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Re: Buick 283

Postby Rettax3 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:17 pm

3X00-Modified wrote:I consider myself very capable at modifying and customizing things to fit where they didn't before... For example I was the first to have a set of S&S headers modded to fit our bay with no clearance issues anywhere... and I would NEVER say it's an easy thing to do, yet all I had to do was cut the tube re-angle the headers and re-weld them then modify and re-design the collector side as well. Easy for me, yes, easy for someone else, NO... this is where I think the statements of "it's as easy as doing a 3X00 swap" is not quite a true statement for everyone.
So the point I'm trying to make is YES I would like to see all of the things you had to do to make this motor fit... Mounts you made where they are bolted to and how much engine flex/body flex you have. I remember one 3800 swap literally bending the radiator support back when it was on the dyno, I have no idea what happened to that car or the video but I remember seeing it one time. I also don't know what the numbers were.


I think you said that very well, something easy for one person may be difficult for another. I keep trying to get my point across that it is relatively easy, it doesn't install itself, and there are a ton of little details to attend to. Throttle cable, fuel lines, etc... But there isn't much fabrication required aside from the exhaust work, and it (once again) CAN be done with a hack-saw and a power-drill, no welding required (I DID weld my engine mounts up, but it isn't strictly required if bolted together well). In some aspects, the engine is a better fit into the car than the 60-degree V-6s, like the location of the heater-hose outlets on the engine, at the back and together, instead of half-way across the engine from each other and as far away from the firewall as they could be... Believe me, I am not taking offensive to any of this: Jon and Eric, you guys have pioneered a lot of Beretta mods, and have proven yourselves over and over again, and you have raised valid questions -this is a discussion, as it should be. :good:
If someone doesn't know how to measure and cut steel, if they are unfamiliar with the basic procedures of swapping an engine, if they are not comfortable with wiring harnesses, this isn't the right swap to start with. Anyone who understood what I had posted up before and had some experience swapping engines and a decent mechanical aptitude shouldn't be scared away from the 3800.

Is it worth doing over a 3500? It was to me, that is about as true as it gets. I didn't have to buy or pull the engine. I've made multiple front-mounts for 3X00s for the older cars, and I would rather build mounts for the 3800. Jon, I have NO body/frame flex that I can measure, NO distortion after years of running this configuration, and I can rev the engine hard in neutral and it doesn't move one iota inside the bay -but I have it solid-mounted too, so I do get some vibrations in the car. I've got somewhere over 300 foot-pounds of torque with this engine (according to research -I have NOT dyno'ed the engine, so I am doing a conservative best-guess, please take that into consideration).

Asylum wrote:Otherwise you are NEVER going to convince me it's worth even considering over a 3500.

I wouldn't even try to convince somebody that this is a swap to do, or not to do, in all honesty. I like my car, and I like how I built it -the truth is part of me wants to jump in with RolinGTZ and tell everyone it is a bad idea, a horribly complex and difficult conversion, so no one else does it. :sorry: But, if someone wants to do this swap, I will generally answer what questions I can about it. That is about as far as I will go, except to say that I like the 3.1 MPFI turbo LG5 /3400 GAGT LA1 hybrid in my '90 'Retta just fine, I think it has great potential and feels strong as heck. But, it was a harder, more complex, and more precise installation than the 3800 SC required, too. I also have the older-style mounts to contend with though. Nothing is just cut-and-dry... :beer:


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26

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Re: Buick 283

Postby Asylum » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:07 pm

There is no argument here, just conversation from guys who "summit" calls the big leaguers who know what the hell they are talking about.

There are legions of guys who adore the 3800 series.

I am NOT one of them. No Bad!

Just exchanging thoughts and ideas.

Just wonder what the Hell you really end up with! And thus far there doesn't seem to be ANY info being offered.

The 60* stuff is very well documented guys!


Eric

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Re: Buick 283

Postby Rettax3 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:12 pm

Asylum wrote:There is no argument here, just conversation from guys who "summit" calls the big leaguers who know what the hell they are talking about.
There are legions of guys who adore the 3800 series.
I am NOT one of them. No Bad!
Just exchanging thoughts and ideas.
Just wonder what the Hell you really end up with! And thus far there doesn't seem to be ANY info being offered.
The 60* stuff is very well documented guys!

Very true. As I mentioned before, I wasn't a fan of the clunky, iron 3800 either, until I had one in my car. Still, definitely not for everyone, and it shouldn't be, what would be the point then?

Okay, now accepting donations for a 1/4-mile track run! :P Sadly, it probably won't happen any time soon otherwise... :sorry: I'm not even sure where a track is in my area, and I WON'T be running the car hard until I get the new tranny past the break-in period I have planned for it any way. I even have the boost-levels set down to ~3psi from the SC (and yes, the Eaton M90 CAN be adjusted down for boost...)


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26

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Re: Buick 283

Postby kellu » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:25 pm

Only reason I wanna do a 3800 swap is because I saw a dyno from a 1998 buick regal with after market supercharger that was pushing over 400hp at the wheels. I don't remember where, it was a while ago.


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Re: Buick 283

Postby Rettax3 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:52 pm

kellu wrote:Only reason I wanna do a 3800 swap is because I saw a dyno from a 1998 buick regal with after market supercharger that was pushing over 400hp at the wheels. I don't remember where, it was a while ago.

Honestly, it takes a lot of $$ to get even a 3800 up to 400 H.P. -at least reliably. And as mentioned before, there isn't much aftermarket support for the 3800. Starting off with a 3500 MIGHT actually get you to a 400 H.P. goal more cheaply... :unknown: I don't mind saying that 400 H.P. (especially on a FWD car) is hard to use. It would barely be streetable, and the cost to get you there would be enormous, because you couldn't just do engine-work, not if you wanted the rest of your drive-train to survive. The 3800 produces a lot of usable power though, very torquey with a nice flat H.P. curve, so there is power evenly across the whole band. I've never dyno'ed my car, but others have so just research that (if you need proof). Try to reach Fastlane02, if he is still around. He had a 3800 SC Beretta cranking out similar numbers to what you are looking for -I think his might be the car Jon is talking about bending the radiator support, but I'm not sure. I know he had bracing problems supporting the engine initially (but his was one of the first ones too) at any rate. I don't know if he ever got his car back together after he blew one of the cylinder heads through the hood, or if he was ever even on this site (I remember him from bstuff as the second of two proof-of-concept 3800 swaps for me). Also research some of the 3800 sites, Grand Prix or other W-body GM sites, to see if you can get a better idea on what that goal will eventually cost you before planning on going through the work on a Beretta-based swap... That would be my advice, at any rate. How comfortable are you with wiring, and basic engine-swap requirements? Or do you have someone local who can help you with this? Also, can you afford to have your car out-of-service for a while (plan on at least a month, depending on how much time each week you can spend on it, and how much work you will farm-out (like having the exhaust done at a shop, for instance). This is NOT a weekend swap-job, since no one makes the mounts or has a kit with all the other things, like the throttle-cable (mine came from some late-nineties Caddy, IIRC), milled flywheel or engine-to-tranny spacers, molded heater hoses, fuel-line fittings (for older cars, at least, I think '90 and up might be plug-n-play), wiring harness, etc, etc... Sticking with stock exhaust manifolds will save time and money, but will hamper your goal of 400 H.P. You might even consider investing in a Series III 3800 -the SC version (L32) from '04 to '07 is rated for 260 H.P., a little closer at least. :pardon: You might lose some of those 20 extra ponies along with the electronic TB though...


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26

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Re: Buick 283

Postby 88_GTU » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:50 pm

There's a guy in central WI putting down close to 400hp. Didn't cost him an arm and a leg but it wasn't cheap either. TGP motor with a GT2871R upgrade pushing 15psi, forged internals, and a getrag 282 with cryo'd internals. He runs stock axles from advance with lifetime warranties that he says he ends up breaking about once a year. Solid mounts as well. I'll try to get more info from him but when we were comparing engine builds we were pretty close. The 3.1 with a 5 spd is probably a good bit lighter than the 3800 with the automatic as well. Sorry to add another engine to the conversation. 400hp is doable for reatively cheap. Just sayin....



J


88 GTU 5spd 67k black
89 GTU 3500/5spd swapped 79k white
08 TBSS LS2 AWD

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Re: Buick 283

Postby Rettax3 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:30 am

88_GTU wrote:There's a guy in central WI putting down close to 400hp. Didn't cost him an arm and a leg but it wasn't cheap either. TGP motor with a GT2871R upgrade pushing 15psi, forged internals, and a getrag 282 with cryo'd internals. He runs stock axles from advance with lifetime warranties that he says he ends up breaking about once a year. Solid mounts as well. I'll try to get more info from him but when we were comparing engine builds we were pretty close. The 3.1 with a 5 spd is probably a good bit lighter than the 3800 with the automatic as well. Sorry to add another engine to the conversation. 400hp is doable for reatively cheap. Just sayin....



J

Please don't apologize! I ran that LG5 in my '90 forever, had the boost up to 12 psi once (accidentally) and the engine is still sitting in my garage. GREAT engine, IMO. The turbo is horribly undersized, but it developed boost by 2000 RPM, so the 3.1 MPFI's already strong mid-range is almost beastly for that size V-6. Truth be told, I went after the 3.4 (3400 block and bottom-end) that is in my car now primarily to keep up with the 3800 I helped build for my friend's GA, ironically, that is now the engine in my GTU. Kellu, maybe for simplicity you should look into something more like this... :unknown:


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26

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Re: Buick 283

Postby 3X00-Modified » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:13 am

to do forged internals on these engines is not cheap... A set of pistons starts at 849.99 at least diamond pistons.




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