What more can i do to my motor

Want to know how to get more out of your Beretta? Or have a mod you would like to share?
SappySE107
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Re: What more can i do to my motor

Postby SappySE107 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:14 pm

I was all about NA until John got on board with WOT-Tech. Having someone with the ability to put a turbo on anything is nice:) NA is a lot of fun, and a challenge to detail work that a turbo eliminates. Getting the best results from boost though, that is also an art and science project. Long live internal combustion!



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Re: What more can i do to my motor

Postby Z26_T » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:55 pm

First thing is to buy a 3400 since you have a 3100. Then get a 3500 top end. If you then want more power decide then decide what type of "power adder" you want. Nitrous, Turbo, or supercharger. All have pros and cons. Start with a 3400/3500 top end and go from there. If you want to drop lots of cash right now, ill sell you my set up. ;)

Edit: because I'm tired.
Last edited by Z26_T on Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.


heavywoody wrote:Beretta, fast, reliable, and cost effective are words that should not be used in the same sentence.

95' BRM Z26. cammed/ported 3400/3500 Hybrid. HM282, OBD2, Garret T3/T04E 60 Trim, IC.

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Re: What more can i do to my motor

Postby SappySE107 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:52 pm

Z26_T wrote:First thing is to buy a 3400 since you have a 3100. Then get a 3500 top end. If you then want more power decide then decide what type of forced induction you want. Nitrous, Turbo, or supercharger. All have pros and cons. Start with a 3400/3500 top end and go from there. If you want to drop lots of cash right now, ill sell you my set up. ;)


Oh lord yes, gotta swap that motor! ROFL and the forced induction of nitrous. awesome. how many psis do I get with the nawz?



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Rettax3
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Re: What more can i do to my motor

Postby Rettax3 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:59 am

WOTTECH wrote:
Rettax3 wrote:
WOTTECH wrote: I know it is way off topic here, but how bad is gasket-matching on the older MPFI heads? I know there is a lot of room for improvement on the older heads, and greater limitations to them even with major mod work, but overall, gasket-matching (with proper supportive work) seems intuitively a good thing...

On my 3400-block 3.1 turbo MPFI top-end hybrid, even with little or no boost, the engine makes very respectable low and mid-range torque, and seems only somewhat limited in upper-RPM bands by the ported gen-2 splayed-valve heads... I am also running custom headers though, so I don't know how much difference there is with that added in. :unknown:


How much boost and fuel line pressure? I saw your other post in the 2.2/2.3/3.1 thread and you are basing everything on books, theory, etc. The gen 2 is only good for low and mid range. Mid range for it is 3-4k. 60V6s are good for 7k. Thats a lot left on the table in stock form, and even modified with headers and camshaft, the engine never makes good power to 6. Getting power to 5k was a serious accomplishment NA. Your turbo will move that powerband some but even if you hit 7k, its just much much lower output than a bone stock gen 3 top end. Gasket match all you want, it can't fix those intake manifolds. Extrude hone can't fix that manifold design.

Reversion isn't really the same on the intake. You have sound waves and pressure waves on both sides, but the exhaust side has a much higher pressure, making its reversion stronger. This can also help suck the intake charge into the cylinder during valve overlap if the pulse tuning isn't forced exhaust back into the chamber/past the intake valve.


Currently, I still haven't had time to mess much with the car, now that the engine is actually installed -I've probably put way less than 1000 miles on it yet, so I still consider it to be in 'break in'. Issues with my poor choice to use aluminum oil-supply lines with compression-fittings instead of flares and some wiring issues and other projects have side-lined this car from being a reliable daily-driveable car right now. I am only running a few PSI of boost until I get it past 1000 miles (hard to determine that, since my speedometer isn't compatible with the Z-24 VSS I screwed up on putting in the car %) ). With the compression ratio calculated off of 60degreeV-6, I won't likely be pushing more than 7, possibly 9 psi (ever), and even that will concern me until I can actually put a tune on the PCM (Venture). I have stock LH0 fuel-pressure, and thusfar have not encountered any limitations related to that -I also have not pushed my engine, so I don't know what other hurdles I will be facing in the upcoming future with it, but I do have a good idea on what to look for. So far as what I have any of my builds based on, :no: I've built enough engines to say I have real-world knowledge overall, but for port-work, yes, a lot of it starts with theory, and only some of it is based in real-world experience. I do not have the flow-benches and computer-based models that some others may have, I am basically a hobby-level shade-tree builder who likes to tinker with things to make them better than what they were originally. I know full-well that the stock 3400 manifold originally on my LA1 block breathed much better than the ported mani and heads from an LG5 turbo 3.1 -I don't care. I used that top-end because I trust it more; to my knowledge and experience, there have been a lot less problems with the older MPFI top-ends than the newer 3X00s (3500s may be excluded, I don't have much experience with them specifically). But more importantly, I used the LG5 top-end because I wanted to keep the look of the older MPFI top-end, since the engine was going into an older-era Beretta, and I like the factory-cast "3.1 Intercooled Turbo" on the manifold. :pardon: So, for me a lot of it is just preference, esthetics, and even a touch of nostalgia. If it wasn't, I wouldn't bother modifying a Beretta at all -I would sell them all off and buy something else if it only boiled-down to the numbers. I am running stock internals too, so I don't plan on seeing 7k RPM often (if ever), and I am not looking for serious power out of this build (250-275 would be fine for me), but the added efficiency of some more-than-mild port work and gasket-matching seemed appropriate, and was fun to do at the time, as was adding the roller-base rocker-arms from a 3400. Hopefully, it helped more than hurt. :unknown: But that is why I asked you, since you are an acknowledged expert on this subject... :wink: If gasket-matching hurts an otherwise good-breathing 3400, would it hurt or help a choked gen-2 top end? So far as how the engine actually feels, all I can say is that it seems to pull almost as hard as the 3800 Series 2 Supercharged engine in my GTU in mid-range, which is saying a lot when looking at the 300+ ft-lbs the 3800 allegedly produces and the very low boost-level I have dialed-in right now, with a totally wrong tune. I've had a basically stock Turbo 3.1 LG5, and it felt quick to me, but this hybrid would destroy it for performance, I will stand on that from experience, and even without the turbo spooled, this engine feels much more responsive than a 3100 (even the wide-port J-codes). My biggest concern over my build (aside from the oil-leaks) is the fact that I put a very large turbo on an engine designed more for mid-range. :oops:


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26

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Re: What more can i do to my motor

Postby 3X00-Modified » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:04 am

WOTTECH wrote:
Z26_T wrote:First thing is to buy a 3400 since you have a 3100. Then get a 3500 top end. If you then want more power decide then decide what type of forced induction you want. Nitrous, Turbo, or supercharger. All have pros and cons. Start with a 3400/3500 top end and go from there. If you want to drop lots of cash right now, ill sell you my set up. ;)


Oh lord yes, gotta swap that motor! ROFL and the forced induction of nitrous. awesome. how many psis do I get with the nawz?


Most racing groups will classify nitrous as forced induction because it's netting a similar result of increasing the PSI of the cylinder by injecting an oxygenator, you will not have increased intake pressure though obviously.



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Re: What more can i do to my motor

Postby Money pit Beretta » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:13 pm

Class rules on boost and NOS. I'd bet he also has to use the engine that came in the car.

Tired and in a bad mood. Don't take it wrong.
An overview of what Ben said:
Gasket matching on intake manifolds: a very good thing
Gasket matching on exhaust manifolds: a very bad thing
Sorry, things just seem to have gotten out of hand. %)


keep'em flying!

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Re: What more can i do to my motor

Postby Rettax3 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:39 am

Money pit Beretta wrote:Class rules on boost and NOS. I'd bet he also has to use the engine that came in the car.

Tired and in a bad mood. Don't take it wrong.

Sorry, things just seem to have gotten out of hand. %)

...And it is ALL YOUR FAULT!! :evil:
Just kidding. :D :friends:


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26

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Re: What more can i do to my motor

Postby Money pit Beretta » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:26 am

:lol: Yeah it's because I'm here. Grimlins make bad luck and expose underlying problems. Even if they are trying to be good. ~~~~~~bad vibes on top of the wave and bad karma on the bottom.
There is someone on the wing......some... thing! That would be a grimlin that is fed up with doing good and small things that are bad(that no one takes notice of).


keep'em flying!

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Re: What more can i do to my motor

Postby Rettax3 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:30 pm

I love the Serling/Shatner reference. You know, we never really did know what that thing was trying to do to the engine... Maybe it was an FAA-certified A&P, or even an IA, trying to check to be sure the spark-plugs were torqued IAW the approved maintenance manual... :P Hey, I for one appreciate the trouble you stir up. Hope things get better for you though, 'Tis the season for grumpiness, but also for letting yourself enjoy the season... :good:


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26

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Re: What more can i do to my motor

Postby Z26_T » Wed Dec 25, 2013 5:33 pm

3X00-Modified wrote:
WOTTECH wrote:
Z26_T wrote:First thing is to buy a 3400 since you have a 3100. Then get a 3500 top end. If you then want more power decide then decide what type of forced induction you want. Nitrous, Turbo, or supercharger. All have pros and cons. Start with a 3400/3500 top end and go from there. If you want to drop lots of cash right now, ill sell you my set up. ;)


Oh lord yes, gotta swap that motor! ROFL and the forced induction of nitrous. awesome. how many psis do I get with the nawz?


Most racing groups will classify nitrous as forced induction because it's netting a similar result of increasing the PSI of the cylinder by injecting an oxygenator, you will not have increased intake pressure though obviously.


Come on Ben. Don't be an idiot. Its classified as forced induction in most race groups. As stated by Jon and how i was referencing it.


heavywoody wrote:Beretta, fast, reliable, and cost effective are words that should not be used in the same sentence.

95' BRM Z26. cammed/ported 3400/3500 Hybrid. HM282, OBD2, Garret T3/T04E 60 Trim, IC.

SappySE107
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Re: What more can i do to my motor

Postby SappySE107 » Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:15 pm

Z26_T wrote:Come on Ben. Don't be an idiot. Its classified as forced induction in most race groups. As stated by Jon and how i was referencing it.



I can't seem to find where the OP mentioned racing in a class. Can you point that out to me please? Forced induction means positive pressure in the intake. Does nitrous do that? Nope. Do you port heads for nitrous like you would super or turbo charged? Im sure you guys do, because that is the same race class somewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_induction

Oh, you guys might bash wiki

http://www.sr20forum.com/archive/index. ... 18877.html

Go argue with those guys from 2007?

Merry Christmas.



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Re: What more can i do to my motor

Postby Z26_T » Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:23 am

So much love. Ben, I like your product. You do make great stuff. That's why I use your stuff-including your heads and cam. But arguing over something this trivial is not the best way to promote your product. I misspoke. I was referring to nitrous as how we talk about it at the track. No, you don't port the heads the same. No, you don't use the same cam profiles. And no, the intake manifold pressures don't go above 1atm. I bow out :).


heavywoody wrote:Beretta, fast, reliable, and cost effective are words that should not be used in the same sentence.

95' BRM Z26. cammed/ported 3400/3500 Hybrid. HM282, OBD2, Garret T3/T04E 60 Trim, IC.

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Re: What more can i do to my motor

Postby SappySE107 » Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:11 am

You called me an idiot on Christmas because you had to bring this crap back up a week later, just to tell me its trivial and not worth arguing over.

Thanks.



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Re: What more can i do to my motor

Postby Money pit Beretta » Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:57 pm

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9021&p=82083#p82083
You didn't see it Ben because it was a year ago. I thought it was an asphalt track car, but it looks like I'm wrong(damn memory).
Thank you Rettax3, I'm hanging in there and making an effort to hold off the rust. Not sure if what I'm doing will be worth anything, but it's got to be better than nothing. Just has to last until I can find a way to patch/replace.


keep'em flying!


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