almost 20yrs later...

Want to know how to get more out of your Beretta? Or have a mod you would like to share?
nocutt
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Re: almost 20yrs later...

Postby nocutt » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:40 pm

bonecrrusher wrote:Chevy runs deep - into the rabbit hole.

Nocutt - you might remember me trying to get that Carbon fiber hood made up years ago.

I scrapped my Z and moved down south - and moved on to bigger and better things.

Roln sold or scrapped his car - he got into a Lincoln LS and a Durango on dubs or something.

Fastlane sold or scrapped his car - I remember him cleaning up a pig barn and trying to open up a speed shop out of it - and yeah that disappeared quickly as well.

There was also the guy in Chicago - Matt something that had an L67 hooked up to a 3T40 in his white Beretta like forever ago.

I took a ride in that car - was good for some torque steerage.

I remember your car having rear disks, and maybe coilovers, way before the others.

I also remember your photoshoot you did inside a parking garage somewhere....

Where has the time gone?


Pffffffffffffff...who can forget you..."bonerfest" hahahahahahahhahahaha wait when u say, "you scrapped the Z" you are talking about the cavvy right? :shock:
so how are you doing man? Okay Matt is the person I was trying to remember...yep remembered him very well...so then fastlane on bstuff had to be "grace89" or something like that on bnet...darn where has the time gone for real...!?!?



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Re: almost 20yrs later...

Postby Rettax3 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:52 am

nocutt wrote:...you have to remember I had completed the swap with the help of WestCoastFiero back circa '98, when RollinGTZ & Fastlane came on I was probably not on bstuff, but rest assured there was a continuum between my car and theirs. Unfortunately I don't know what happened to either of these vehicles nor their owners. I know RollinGTZ complained about the difficulty of the swap and general maintenance...
All the 3800 v6 swaps in all the Berettas I have seen are completely unique...ALL and I am not talking little things here and there...the approach was different in comparisons to say 3800 v6 swaps in fieros (I personally took a road race approach) and then I feel none of us ever continued to do swaps or influenced others enough to create some kind of "lineage"...I believe it is just based on the owner, I think we are a bit eccentric in our own way...lol I took the turbo route because I was already in that area of performance (Lc6/buick) before getting into these cars, but it was a very long and lonely road for a while...there was ABSOLUTELY nothing on the market, for Berettas (well there was mantapart...God forbid you sent them your well earned $$$) talk less of the 3800 v6 sc'd/na...when the market exploded it was also geared towards the L67, but that did not still translate into our little niche (mind you this turbo setup translated very, very well I might add understandably in the GP community) and there was also a configuration war going on between the 60 degree guys and 90 degree v6...and it was quite entrenched (in our community) many chose the 60 degree v6 even when there was nothing besides moving up in displacement...loyalty, familiarity runs deep!!

Ha, yeah. Total truth there... I remember asking RollinGTZ about his $600+ custom half-shafts and getting an abrupt "If 3400s are snapping axles, what do you think a 3800 will do to them?" when all I was really interested in knowing was if the lengths had to be custom or not... And FWIW I have never broken a CV joint on one of my cars... I had serious concern at that time if my pax-side CV would end up too short and the DS too long due to the extra ~1.25 inch or so on the harmonic balancer due to my Series II's second (Super-Charger) drive-belt, and the 5/16 inch shims I made between the engine and transaxle bell-housing to accommodate an off-the-shelf 3800 flywheel, which is dramatically thicker than a 60-degree V-6's flywheel... Anyway, yes, it is the individual uniqueness of the 3800 builds that makes them more interesting than a 3X00 swap IMO, and as I've said several times before, the engine almost seems to fit the Beretta better than the 60-degree engine does (for instance, look at the heater-hose connection locations -the stock Berettas need piping wrapping almost completely around the engine to get coolant to the heater-core, whereas the 3800 has the outlets right at the back of the engine...), and I had a step-by-step write-up back on bstuff proving that the swap could be done with the basic tools required to swap a stock engine, a hack-saw and a power-drill -not a very tough swap IMO, I never really got what RollinGTZ was griping about. :Search: Although interestingly enough, my front plugs are really easy to get to and my rear plugs are a b!tc#... I am thinking that my engine is located slightly farther back in the bay than yours is? I had stock 282 tranny-mounts on my five-speed before I switched over to the F40, were your tranny mounts custom?

I looked a bit through your old thread you linked, and if I caught it right, you are using N/A PCM code?

Now if you want to talk about lonely, try swapping a N* into a five-speed Beretta... :wink: There isn't a V-6 fan in either camp who appreciates that swap as anything other than a freak-show =@ , and the only cheering section seems to be newbie pipe-dreamers who say that they are 'gonna do that next week' when their pay-check clears and their uncle gives them the ol' Deville... :roll: No clue that even the flywheel needs to be custom, the tranny modified, and that the engine doesn't actually fit inside the engine-bay without ditching the power-steering pump and belt tensioner, not to mention the oil-pan... :crazy: Virtually zero aftermarket support, and probably never will be, and my "new" DHP won't even talk to the PCM, as I understand it...


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26

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Re: almost 20yrs later...

Postby bonecrrusher » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:46 am

NoCutt - Matt was in Chicago or the burbs - I am not sure he was ever on the board for any substantial amount of time - I dont even know if he had a screen name.

Fastlane/Grace 89 - that was the the pig farmer speed shop guy in Indiana.

At one time I had my 94 Z26, my 94 Cavalier, and my 99 GAGT.

The Cavalier overheated and blew a head gasket - that got scrapped.
The 94 Z26 was the car I was building my 3400 combo for - that all got parted out - and the car was donated to charity -as I was moving 1000 miles from home and no way to move a car with no interior/drivetrain in it - let alone store it somewhere.

I traded the GAGT in on my C6.
Then I bought a 98 Grand Prix GTP - that was my DD until it got traded in on my G8 GT.
I had the G8 for 4 years and recently traded that in on my 14 SS.
I also got a truck last year - so yeah many cars have come and gone - and I have no idea where the time goes either....


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Re: almost 20yrs later...

Postby nocutt » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:04 pm

Rettax3 wrote:Ha, yeah. Total truth there... I remember asking RollinGTZ about his $600+ custom half-shafts and getting an abrupt "If 3400s are snapping axles, what do you think a 3800 will do to them?" when all I was really interested in knowing was if the lengths had to be custom or not... And FWIW I have never broken a CV joint on one of my cars... I had serious concern at that time if my pax-side CV would end up too short and the DS too long due to the extra ~1.25 inch or so on the harmonic balancer due to my Series II's second (Super-Charger) drive-belt, and the 5/16 inch shims I made between the engine and transaxle bell-housing to accommodate an off-the-shelf 3800 flywheel, which is dramatically thicker than a 60-degree V-6's flywheel... Anyway, yes, it is the individual uniqueness of the 3800 builds that makes them more interesting than a 3X00 swap IMO, and as I've said several times before, the engine almost seems to fit the Beretta better than the 60-degree engine does (for instance, look at the heater-hose connection locations -the stock Berettas need piping wrapping almost completely around the engine to get coolant to the heater-core, whereas the 3800 has the outlets right at the back of the engine...), and I had a step-by-step write-up back on bstuff proving that the swap could be done with the basic tools required to swap a stock engine, a hack-saw and a power-drill -not a very tough swap IMO, I never really got what RollinGTZ was griping about. :Search:


You my friend are a swap freakazoid :good: I think RolnGTZ got too much flack because I believe he paid for ALL his work to be completed and did not represent it that way imo. Not mad at that, but when new ppl came in the information was misrepresented and this guys often became disillusioned...I know on Bnet he got a lot of flack for whatever reason, he was nice ppl just did not think the swap was for him...too many issues left and right and seem did not have the will to take it further. I feel this separates those who understand and those who don't...again my opinion. This swap is/was not necessarily about $$$ in my opinion (don't get me wrong the engien cost a lot back then)...it plays a role, not that much for just basic stuff...now if u were breaking trannies left and right like fiero guys then I can see spending so much...*cough*cough I kinda did though it terms of overall build...not a $6XX half shaft lol

continuing Rettax3 wrote:...Although interestingly enough, my front plugs are really easy to get to and my rear plugs are a b!tc#... I am thinking that my engine is located slightly farther back in the bay than yours is? I had stock 282 tranny-mounts on my five-speed before I switched over to the F40, were your tranny mounts custom?

I looked a bit through your old thread you linked, and if I caught it right, you are using N/A PCM code?


My engine sits square in the middle...driveshafts are almost 90 degrees with straight tires (slightly tilted back)...I am using a three core radiator and had to run a 2.5" pipe back then (now 3"). The engine also sits low, using 4t60-e; tranny oil pan barely passes sway bar (I have a tranny mount there) hard to explain, not sure if I have pics of the underbelly...so yes all custom mounts (5 of them)
edit : Image

so I take it you have a manual? lucky you or unlucky you hahahahahaha can you link me to post your pics...I think I have seen it before but it has been a while

continuing Rettax3 wrote: Now if you want to talk about lonely, try swapping a N* into a five-speed Beretta... :wink: There isn't a V-6 fan in either camp who appreciates that swap as anything other than a freak-show =@ , and the only cheering section seems to be newbie pipe-dreamers who say that they are 'gonna do that next week' when their pay-check clears and their uncle gives them the ol' Deville... :roll: No clue that even the flywheel needs to be custom, the tranny modified, and that the engine doesn't actually fit inside the engine-bay without ditching the power-steering pump and belt tensioner, not to mention the oil-pan... :crazy: Virtually zero aftermarket support, and probably never will be, and my "new" DHP won't even talk to the PCM, as I understand it...


LOL yeah I knew a N* could fit but I was not about to do that...there is a company out here who specialize(d) in those engines and I remember when Chris West (owner of westcoastfiero) would call for relevant info regarding force induction they will tell him in essence not to bother due to a lack of the aftermarket...boy where they right. I think the engine was a technological marvel but it needed to stay in the caddy lol nowhere else well ok besides this one.
Image

still a headache, but the performance UNGODLY and I will NEVER EVER get in it again, I love life :O:
Regarding the computer, I think going after market computer is the best bet...we talked to Shelby's team in Vegas about the project...they recommended ditching the factory pcm, but then again that was a couple years ago, who knows what has been improved upon...



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Re: almost 20yrs later...

Postby Rettax3 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:05 am

nocutt wrote:Image

still a headache, but the performance UNGODLY and I will NEVER EVER get in it again, I love life :O:
:shock: :shock: :shock: Just... Wow.
continuing nocutt wrote:You my friend are a swap freakazoid :good:

Thanks. :D I get bored with stock, and odd-ball swaps is one of my few forms of artistic (or is that autistic?) expression. Particularly when I am told it can't be done, or costs $xx,000 to make it happen. For instance, my particular 3800 engine was given to me, abandoned by a good friend who I help build it for, but even with buying the GTU to put it in and the five-speed parts to mate up to it, I still had a great-running DD out of it for less than a grand. :pardon:
I am running stock SSEi Bonneville PCM and wiring, piggy-backed into the GTU's wiring. It has been more than sufficient for me, despite the few tweaks I've done to the engine. My main thing with that car was a desire to be able to undo the conversion if I ever wanted to. I have two holes drilled into the right sub-frame, one ground-wire cut and spliced into from the fuel-pump (for the multi-speed pump control used on my SSEi's system), cut-outs in my already cracked ground-effects for the exhaust (which wasn't strictly necessary) and the hole in the firewall needed to convert the car to five-speed (originally it had the TH125C). That is it, everything else unbolts or unplugs. With the six-speed F40 I have in it now, I will also need to drill another two holes into the left sub-frame before I get aggressive with the car, but since sub-frames can be un-bolted and swapped-out, I am not too concerned about that. I have also drilled some holes into the already crumbling dash to accomodate some add-on gauges -tach, boost, oil pressure, and AFR, but those were also not strictly necessary for the swap. My GTU has the digi-dash gauges, and everything works except for the tach (I still haven't fabricated a signal-generator compatible with the GTU's ECM yet) and obviously the MPG and Range displays, although the 'Range' does try and is fairly close towards the end of the tank...

continuing nocut wrote:so I take it you have a manual? lucky you or unlucky you hahahahahaha can you link me to post your pics...I think I have seen it before but it has been a while


Oddly enough, I remember asking on bstuff if I had the first manual 3800 SC Beretta, and being told that you had built the first one... :Search:

I am still shaky on linking in other threads, but here are a few pics of the car.
First roll-out.jpg
This was back when I was just finishing up the swap. I ended up moving the air-cleaner to the front, instead of behind the TB. Now that I can start playing around with the PCM, I will probably get back to using the 76mm N* TB I had set up for the car, which will mean some porting work at the opening to the M90 (Super Charger).

062113Engine1a.jpg
My first setup (five-speed) had the drive-train anchored at six points -now with the six-speed in there, I 'only' have five.

062113F403a.jpg
The 'slightly' modified F40 six-speed trans, showing-up the rusty headers with its' bright-shiny newness... :(

Headers.jpg
This is how they used to look. The intent was to run all six headers all the way to the outlets in front of the rear wheels, each with its' own muffler, and a dynamic damper setup in the outlet to regulate back-pressure. I couldn't get the car quiet enough though, so it hasn't happened. I am running a true dual 2" mandrel-bent exhaust now, with five mufflers underneath the car, and she is still too loud <shrug>.


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26

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Re: almost 20yrs later...

Postby nocutt » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:34 pm

bonecrrusher wrote:NoCutt - Matt was in Chicago or the burbs - I am not sure he was ever on the board for any substantial amount of time - I dont even know if he had a screen name.


I am very positive he was on here...because at one point I had pics of all the 3800 v6 posted (in a beretta) and I think his was in a garage sitting on a lift...well it was a white 3800 beretta. Don't remember if it was through emails/pms...but I communicated with someone with such a car...but as you say time has passed I could be mixing up my fantasy with reality :lol:

continuing; bonecrusher wrote:Fastlane/Grace 89 - that was the the pig farmer speed shop guy in Indiana.


Hahahahahaha figuratively or literally hahahahahahahahaha; I did hear his car was on a dyno and was literally tweaking his radiator support...

continuing; bonecrusher wrote:At one time I had my 94 Z26, my 94 Cavalier, and my 99 GAGT.

The Cavalier overheated and blew a head gasket - that got scrapped.
The 94 Z26 was the car I was building my 3400 combo for - that all got parted out - and the car was donated to charity -as I was moving 1000 miles from home and no way to move a car with no interior/drivetrain in it - let alone store it somewhere.

I traded the GAGT in on my C6.
Then I bought a 98 Grand Prix GTP - that was my DD until it got traded in on my G8 GT.
I had the G8 for 4 years and recently traded that in on my 14 SS.
I also got a truck last year - so yeah many cars have come and gone - and I have no idea where the time goes either....


Wow...we are definitely OLD hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaaha glad to see you are still kicking & ticking 8)



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Re: almost 20yrs later...

Postby nocutt » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:58 pm

Rettax3 wrote:Thanks. :D I get bored with stock, and odd-ball swaps is one of my few forms of artistic (or is that autistic?) expression. Particularly when I am told it can't be done, or costs $xx,000 to make it happen.


*cough*cough* a lil bit of both I would say :crazy:


continuing; Rettax3 wrote:Oddly enough, I remember asking on bstuff if I had the first manual 3800 SC Beretta, and being told that you had built the first one... :Search
:

these things do not matter per se as time passes...




Very nice setup indeed, yeah that is the one I have seen including the N*...I did not know this 3800 v6 was connected to a manual...cool breeze...

so what are your hp goals with this setup and ultimate objective?



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Re: almost 20yrs later...

Postby bonecrrusher » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:05 pm

Nocutt - thinking back.

Matt may have had a screen name of whiteL67supercharged or something like that.

Yeah - hopefully I am done with cars for awhile.

I just built the LS2 in the Vette - and it at the body shop right now.

The truck has an overheating Allison.

On top of that I am trying to save up for a new house.... fun times!


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Re: almost 20yrs later...

Postby woody90gtz » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:51 am

Boner changes cars like underwear...


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Re: almost 20yrs later...

Postby Rettax3 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:57 pm

nocutt wrote:Very nice setup indeed, yeah that is the one I have seen including the N*...I did not know this 3800 v6 was connected to a manual...cool breeze...
so what are your hp goals with this setup and ultimate objective?

Thank you. I met my goals with this car once it was running years ago, it was reliable from day 2 (a slight issue with a heater-core hose that lost an argument with a header-pipe on the first day took the claim of day 1 away from me :wink: ). I would like to get that 76mm TB on it, but I seriously doubt it will increase the WHP enough for me to feel it -it is more of a 'uniqueness' thing for me I guess, and using the parts that I made for it just to feel 'finished' with it. -That and the cruise-control module fits so nicely on that TB that I would like to have it in place for that as well.

I figure that my Series II was rated at 240 HP. With my headers, low-restriction short-run dual exhaust, warm-air intake, higher compression, lighter internals, and correctly-balanced crankshaft (as I understand it, the L67 crank was externally balanced to compensate for the heavier connecting-rods and pistons used with it, as opposed to an internally 'neutral'-balance on the L36 crank, which is necessary when bolting-on the fourth-gen F-Body 3800 flywheel), 275 HP is a reasonable, maybe even conservative, guestimate. I would like to put in an LSD, but they are very pricey for the F40s, and I simply don't have time or money to make that happen any time in the foreseeable future. I don't track the car, it is one of my DDs, so I really don't think it is absolutely necessary either. Aside from that, I would love to finally take it out to a b-fest some time, but that won't happen until they come farther West than Colorado... Pretty simple objectives, IMO... :D :wink:


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26

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Re: almost 20yrs later...

Postby nocutt » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:24 pm

bonecrrusher wrote:Nocutt - thinking back.

Matt may have had a screen name of whiteL67supercharged or something like that.

Yeah - hopefully I am done with cars for awhile.

I just built the LS2 in the Vette - and it at the body shop right now.

The truck has an overheating Allison.

On top of that I am trying to save up for a new house.... fun times!


Yes, Yes boner...that screen name sounds familiar, I know I had conversations with him regarding our setup...
A house, I envy you...in the united states of Cali...I have but forgotten that dream hahahhahahahaha. Good luck for sure...



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Re: almost 20yrs later...

Postby nocutt » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:26 pm

woody90gtz wrote:Boner changes cars like underwear...



:burn: boner
hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaahahha donde esta Aloe vera?



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Re: almost 20yrs later...

Postby nocutt » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:48 pm

Rettax3 wrote: I met my goals with this car once it was running years ago, it was reliable from day 2 (a slight issue with a heater-core hose that lost an argument with a header-pipe on the first day took the claim of day 1 away from me :wink: ). I would like to get that 76mm TB on it, but I seriously doubt it will increase the WHP enough for me to feel it -it is more of a 'uniqueness' thing for me I guess, and using the parts that I made for it just to feel 'finished' with it. -That and the cruise-control module fits so nicely on that TB that I would like to have it in place for that as well.

I figure that my Series II was rated at 240 HP. With my headers, low-restriction short-run dual exhaust, warm-air intake, higher compression, lighter internals, and correctly-balanced crankshaft (as I understand it, the L67 crank was externally balanced to compensate for the heavier connecting-rods and pistons used with it, as opposed to an internally 'neutral'-balance on the L36 crank, which is necessary when bolting-on the fourth-gen F-Body 3800 flywheel), 275 HP is a reasonable, maybe even conservative, guestimate. I would like to put in an LSD, but they are very pricey for the F40s, and I simply don't have time or money to make that happen any time in the foreseeable future. I don't track the car, it is one of my DDs, so I really don't think it is absolutely necessary either. Aside from that, I would love to finally take it out to a b-fest some time, but that won't happen until they come farther West than Colorado... Pretty simple objectives, IMO... :D :wink:


I know these motors are notorious for pulling timing...so long as you don't have any KR I think you are good up to a point. Are you still on the stock pulley? My close friend (who has now sold his fiero) dynoed at about 275whp with a 3.4" pulley...minimal mods for boost range and he was very happy with it. I personally think in a street driven beretta with suspension mods and good brakes...300whp is ppppppppppppppppplenty enough it doesn't matter when the hp comes on...these cars are relatively light on my setup I pot around town with about 3-5psi... :crazy:

If you don't track the car, I won't even bother with the LSD, so long as you don't go gun-ho at every light hahahahahaha

anyways you have a minimalist approach and really pragmatic objectives...it is really nice and refreshing!!



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Re: almost 20yrs later...

Postby Cliff8928 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:42 pm

The LSD is way more fun in turns than it ever is in a straight line...


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Re: almost 20yrs later...

Postby Rettax3 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:55 am

nocutt wrote:I know these motors are notorious for pulling timing...so long as you don't have any KR I think you are good up to a point. Are you still on the stock pulley? My close friend (who has now sold his fiero) dynoed at about 275whp with a 3.4" pulley...minimal mods for boost range and he was very happy with it. I personally think in a street driven beretta with suspension mods and good brakes...300whp is ppppppppppppppppplenty enough it doesn't matter when the hp comes on...these cars are relatively light on my setup I pot around town with about 3-5psi... :crazy:

If you don't track the car, I won't even bother with the LSD, so long as you don't go gun-ho at every light hahahahahaha

anyways you have a minimalist approach and really pragmatic objectives...it is really nice and refreshing!!

Thanks again. I wouldn't say I am a minimalist, maybe 'direct'... :good: And honestly, I like to keep things real.

Stock 3.8" pulley, yes. The only thing I changed along those lines was the actual belt-routing (shorter belt and one less idler pulley on the accessory, I think I deleted an idler on the SC belt too, but I don't recall off the top of my head). Boost is adjustable (to a small degree) with the bypass-valve solenoid. I usually see 5-7 psi on 'high' mode (seems like I've seen ~10 before, but I am not sure how I would get so much fluctuation), around 3-4 psi on 'low' (which I haven't seen since I was done breaking-in the engine). Not much boost, but with my CR notched up to 9.4:1 vs 8.5:1, I don't need to see any more. I am pretty sure I am losing a lot of timing, but I don't see the need to run racing fuel in this car :wink: . I have no traction through third-gear as it is. It simply smokes everything else I have on four wheels, except for my turbo Z-24 (5-speed 2.4L DOHC 4-banger with an under-sized IHI intercooled turbo robbed from a 2.3 Thunder Coupe, pushing ~9psi) which can actually hang with the GTU up to maybe ~70 or 80 MPH), at least for now :twisted: . I don't compare my car to what it could be if I wanted to dump a boat-load of cash into them and have them blow themselves apart every six weeks. I do compare my cars to what they were originally in stock form, and there really isn't much of a comparison in the GTU's case. I love the suspension on that car too, but yeah, the brakes suck. I have enough HP for my brakes' capabilities on this car.


1989 Super Charged 3800 Series II (First)Six-Speed Conversion GTU
1990 Turbo 3.4 Five-Speed T-Type
1990 4.0L 4-Cam 32-Valve V-8 Five-Speed Indy GTi (Rebuild Project)
1990 Stock(!) 3.1 MPFI Auto Indy
1995 3400 Top-End Auto OD Z-26


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