Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Want some new struts? What brand springs to buy? How much camber to run? What brake pads? What's the best setup for your situation....
User avatar
Barry
Global Moderator
Posts: 1860
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:11 pm
Location: Hatfield Pa
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Postby Barry » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:48 pm

Its not that I care that I kill front pads. I drive it very hard, past the capabilities of the front brakes often, I deserve it. What I dont like is the fact that my rear brakes hardly do ANYTHING. They NEED more pressure to be useful. Yes, I can still stop pretty fast (v6 fwd car with 235's on the front), but all that lost rear braking is hurting. I can actually stop faster using the brake pedal and fethering the ebrake to get more rear stopping power.

The point of this is that the stock master cylinder does not supply enough pressure/flow to the rear calipers to take advantage of them. Im sorry, but all the neon disk swap is is just a cosmetic mod. I hate to rain on the parade but it is the honest truth.

As for abs, under locking situations you can mash the pedal as hard as you want, but because only the fronts are locking it modulates/pulses them and leaves the rears alone because there still rolling, allowing you to put as much pressure to the rears as you can.



User avatar
3X00-Modified
Administrator
Posts: 10672
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:18 am
Location: Plainfield CT
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 46 times

Re: Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Postby 3X00-Modified » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:03 pm

Ok someone on here bump the pressure some how and when all I hear is my "rear brakes keep locking up" I'll try to keep quiet.

I've mashed my pedal quite a few times and you know when the abs kicks in, and I haven't had that happen.

Everyone is working off of the equivalent of ass dyno here and no one has any proof that they do or don't do enough so I guess until someone dyno's their brakes as weba has done we can all just stop arguing about it.



User avatar
Barry
Global Moderator
Posts: 1860
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:11 pm
Location: Hatfield Pa
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Postby Barry » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:18 pm

Jon, pull your abs fuse, go out in the rain, drive 40mph, slowly Apply pedal, notice that the fronts lock, then 3 inches of pedal later, the rears lock. 3 inches may be exaggerating but it's pretty significant.

We are far, so far from locking rears before fronts



User avatar
Barry
Global Moderator
Posts: 1860
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:11 pm
Location: Hatfield Pa
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Postby Barry » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:32 pm

And don't get me wrong, you wouldnt want them locking at he same time or even close to that for obvious reasons, but we are far from that



User avatar
3X00-Modified
Administrator
Posts: 10672
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:18 am
Location: Plainfield CT
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 46 times

Re: Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Postby 3X00-Modified » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:21 pm

Go out in the rain and panic stop... see how quick they lock up... The test procedure your describing NO WAY in hell transfers enough weight to the front of the car to show you what will happen on a regular basis, add more pressure and you'll be locking them up all the time. Sorry but that way of testing is just not right.



User avatar
Cliff8928
Administrator
Posts: 1774
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:03 pm
Location: Long Grove, IL
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 10 times
Contact:

Re: Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Postby Cliff8928 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:22 pm

Barry wrote:Jon, pull your abs fuse, go out in the rain, drive 40mph, slowly Apply pedal, notice that the fronts lock, then 3 inches of pedal later, the rears lock. 3 inches may be exaggerating but it's pretty significant.

We are far, so far from locking rears before fronts


It's amazing the improvement in the newer cars braking systems. DRP FTW.


Cliff Scott
Image

User avatar
Barry
Global Moderator
Posts: 1860
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:11 pm
Location: Hatfield Pa
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Postby Barry » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:33 pm

Stock mastercylinder does not produce enough rear line pressure.

End of argument



User avatar
SuzukiGhostRider
Registered User
Posts: 2464
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:07 am
Location: Milan NM
Contact:

Re: Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Postby SuzukiGhostRider » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:01 pm

Wow, so much for keeping this thread full of BS. Thanks for the answer to my question a page and a half ago before all this hot discussion Wanako. Anyone else wanna chime in please? Thanks.


Image

User avatar
Barry
Global Moderator
Posts: 1860
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:11 pm
Location: Hatfield Pa
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Postby Barry » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:15 pm

SuzukiGhostRider wrote:Wow, so much for keeping this thread full of BS. Thanks for the answer to my question a page and a half ago before all this hot discussion Wanako. Anyone else wanna chime in please? Thanks.

It's all the same, but the caliper will be clocked differently. Bolt pattern is 5x100. The only questionable part is the ebrake cable. I do not know of the stock one will work like it does for the neon stuff



User avatar
Wanako
Registered User
Posts: 1098
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:29 am
Location: Torrance, CA

Re: Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Postby Wanako » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:52 pm

SuzukiGhostRider wrote:Wow, so much for keeping this thread full of BS. Thanks for the answer to my question a page and a half ago before all this hot discussion Wanako. Anyone else wanna chime in please? Thanks.


Actually, If you notice, the answer was delivered in the middle of all the hot discussion. Kinda like being a mailman making a delivery in between crossfire.
:burn:

:lol:

but either way, Barry's right, the only real difference is the location of the caliper, which in my opinion isn't very aesthetically pleasing, and potentially a difference in e-brake.



User avatar
Barry
Global Moderator
Posts: 1860
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:11 pm
Location: Hatfield Pa
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Postby Barry » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:05 pm

So here's some information I have gathered. I am looking for new master cylinders that will suit the rear disk swap and I think I found one.

93 Chevy lumina. Has 4 wheel disk and similar(still checking) abs units. It has a rear caliper with a bore of 1.375" (neon is 1.34") and front calipers with 2 1.653" (f bodies are twin 1.77")

So it looks like fbody front brakes and neon rear brakes with a 93ish lumina master cylinder would be pretty close to whatever GM thinks is a decent bias, of course leaving out rotor diameter, pad area, weight transfer, etc.

Im also trying to find out if the luminas/similar cars ever got 4 wheel disk and NO abs. That would be nice for me.



User avatar
Wanako
Registered User
Posts: 1098
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:29 am
Location: Torrance, CA

Re: Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Postby Wanako » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:47 pm

Barry wrote:So here's some information I have gathered. I am looking for new master cylinders that will suit the rear disk swap and I think I found one.

93 Chevy lumina. Has 4 wheel disk and similar(still checking) abs units. It has a rear caliper with a bore of 1.375" (neon is 1.34") and front calipers with 2 1.653" (f bodies are twin 1.77")

So it looks like fbody front brakes and neon rear brakes with a 93ish lumina master cylinder would be pretty close to whatever GM thinks is a decent bias, of course leaving out rotor diameter, pad area, weight transfer, etc.

Im also trying to find out if the luminas/similar cars ever got 4 wheel disk and NO abs. That would be nice for me.


No ABS It's what I would be interested in also. None on my car.



User avatar
Cliff8928
Administrator
Posts: 1774
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:03 pm
Location: Long Grove, IL
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 10 times
Contact:

Re: Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Postby Cliff8928 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:38 am

Barry wrote:Im also trying to find out if the luminas/similar cars ever got 4 wheel disk and NO abs. That would be nice for me.


That would be a "J65" setup which was available in the W-bodies.


Cliff Scott
Image

User avatar
3X00-Modified
Administrator
Posts: 10672
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:18 am
Location: Plainfield CT
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 46 times

Re: Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Postby 3X00-Modified » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:08 am

SuzukiGhostRider wrote:Wow, so much for keeping this thread full of BS. Thanks for the answer to my question a page and a half ago before all this hot discussion Wanako. Anyone else wanna chime in please? Thanks.


Well really this thread is not full of BS... It's all relevant to the topic; is it unfortunate that we have to have this back and forth banter because no one has any solid proof on what they are speculating... Yeah that sucks... But until someone actually Dyno's a MC for both the Beretta and the now lumina proposed one... and finds something like a 300PSI proportion difference then its going to just keep going back and forth.


The bolt pattern will never change because if you read the topic you would see that your using the factory beretta bearing. Hence the need to machine the brackets to fit the bearing in there. The problems with the daytona is yes the location of the caliper is not ideal for apearance wise, and the e-brake input hole is not in the same area as the neon and makes the stock cables like 1/2" too short. But as you can see in the photos there is no material that needs to be machined out, only the center hole needs to be opened up and the 4 bearing holes drilled... Rather simple procedure.



User avatar
Barry
Global Moderator
Posts: 1860
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:11 pm
Location: Hatfield Pa
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Neon rear Disc Brake Write up

Postby Barry » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:03 pm

Want to split a brake pressure gauge with me? There about 50 bucks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-SSBC ... ccessories

Once we have pressure we can go:
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/bias-calculator/

Then I can swap to another M/C and abs unit and try it again to see if any improvements are made.

OR if I better understood the workings of the abs pump maybe I could trick it into more rear brake pressure.




Return to “Suspension and Brakes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests