Beretta.net

GHOSTOWLGRID wrote:I'm not really looking at kits, although one would be nice.

I'm mainly looking for small premade parts, of different sizes and legnths, bends with flanges i can bolt together, and in the right combo, it would fit.
i guess you could call that a kit. haha

I'm willing to do almost anything except welding basically. I havent access to a welder, and i don't know how to weld, and nobody i know has one.
But i've gotten over that bump, i found connecting pipes that will work and i found some special clamps that i can use.

I"m just having trouble finding a premade flange with a short stub of pipe to fit now, once i find everything, then i can buy all of it.


I do plan to check out the turbo grand prix. once break starts i can go looking in junk yards. but for now, I'm stuck at the university.

You won't find much that wont require welding with this type of kit you need to build. As stated unless someone provides you with everything, which would have to be a custom shop or someone on here selling a setup, your going to have to learn how to or get someone who can weld pipes up for you... Clamping stuff together is just going to go sour real quick.

You will for sure have to go with a custom set-up on the crossover. I played around with this idea for my 89 and your trans mount WILL be in the way. If you would like other TGP parts such as the rear manifold, injectors, PROM, upper intake, i can get it for you in a week or so when i head back to the yard that i found an unmolested TGP. Your front manifold will be the same as the TGP piece. PM me if you would like me to get you anything off the TGP and i can also get you a quote for the same.

Money pit Beretta wrote:Did you check my link? He is going to trash that car soon.

Yah, I don't have 2K to spend. My price range is around 1K at most. Assuming I buy the set.
If all else fails, I'll contact him about the cross over pipe. But for now, I believe I am set.

A while ago I completed my list by accident, I found the Cross over pipe by accident. And someone who can weld, I will have to have one item welded.
I found a T3/T4 turbo with a small defect in the compressor outlet for 300 dollars, comes with the blow off valve built in. I also found someone who welds replacement 1990 Grand Prix Cross over pipes for the 3.1L Turbo engine that will fit. Its 375 dollars.
I can pick up the oil lines and fittings for 25-30 dollars, and I can connect those with good seals. As well as the split so I can still have my oil pressure sensor.
I found the Manifold Pressure gauge for 30 dollars, and a nice housing for it. Heat wrap is around 40 dollars.
Other miscellaneous parts I can spare around 100 dollars or so...
2 Bar map I found for 70 dollars.
Turbo compatible eprom chip I already have.

These are not professional parts, but they are not cheap either, I finally managed to find everything at good prices.
There are only a couple more details I will sort out, and a trip to my local junk yard over the weekend to look at a 1990 Turbo Grand prix, before I buy the pipe online, and I'm set.

I looked up people who checked the differences between the 3.1 and the 3.1 turbo, and most all of them say the parts were off the same production line, same numbers, so I'm assuming for now on my stock engine I can easily put 7 PSI into it. Maybe 10, But I'm not willing to push it until I know for sure.
Although, I might have to upgrade my head gasket, as that I believe was different.

Ok, just thought there might be something there you could use. Sound like you have it worked out.

Money pit Beretta wrote:Ok, just thought there might be something there you could use. Sound like you have it worked out.

I probably could, But to me, that seems like a bit much to spend for used parts considering I can complete the task for under 1K.
Unless they are new, They look used to me.

Yeah they were used. What about the fuel pump?

As stated earlier, the TGP x-over won't fit in our engine bay without some modification. In mockups I've found that when you replace the bellows on the x-over ( you WILL need to if it's stock) you can turn the center section with the flange to a more upward facing direction to clear the trans mount. I have a smaller billet trans mount as well tho so I have a little more room than your stock mount. Modifying a tgp setup would still probably be the "cheapest" way of doing it. If you do some searching you can probably find a pulled engine for cheap. The last 2 I picked up I got for less than $200 each. Then you'll have most of the necessary pieces to make it work and a good amount left to spend on the necessary modifications.

J

88_GTU wrote:As stated earlier, the TGP x-over won't fit in our engine bay without some modification. In mockups I've found that when you replace the bellows on the x-over ( you WILL need to if it's stock) you can turn the center section with the flange to a more upward facing direction to clear the trans mount. I have a smaller billet trans mount as well tho so I have a little more room than your stock mount. Modifying a tgp setup would still probably be the "cheapest" way of doing it. If you do some searching you can probably find a pulled engine for cheap. The last 2 I picked up I got for less than $200 each. Then you'll have most of the necessary pieces to make it work and a good amount left to spend on the necessary modifications.

J

I can always find steel and machine together a custom mount and bolt the pieces together. I just can't weld anything.
I figure if I clock the turbo compressor, and the Drive turbine housing, while keeping the oil fittings vertical, it should fit.

If it comes down to a few inches here or there, I can consider some changes. I'm very good at making things fit and work.
I already have a spare 3.1L MPFI v6 sitting off to the side in my other indy, the one that got totaled by a semi.
So for now I'm okay. My main priority is getting everything together, fitted and working at around 5-10 PSI. Then I'll modify the spare 3.1 I have and then swap the engines in a weekend. I still need my car functional to drive around.

This for now is a project car, it needs work here and there, When it dies, I have a few more Beretta that I can move the turbo setup to.
I just can't wait, when I finally get it all together and working, I'm defiantly going to the track and playing with it.

One solution to the tranny-mount problem is to build a bottom mount. Fab a plate that attaches to the transmission using four or five of the case-half bolts along the bottom, and hangs down low enough to drill another hole into. Then make a pair of plates that bolt onto the sub-frame and stick up, allowing them to have holes that line-up to your trans-mount plate. Run a bolt through the whole thing, and you are done. Without rubber in it, you will get a little vibration, but not as bad as you would think. The TGP's tiny little T-25 will clear the frame-side of the factory transmission mount, and you can even use that to attach a heat-shield to keep the temperatures away from your battery. At ~5 psi, an intercooler is not really necessary. By 10 psi, yeah, you should be looking for something. On my '90 turbo 'Retta, I relocated the battery to behind the engine with a modified heater-fan box with a battery-tray built in, and I put an intercooler where the battery was. Then I took a spare hood and grafted-in a NACA scoop to feed the intercooler. I always wanted to box-in some ducting to feed an extraction-vent in the lower fender behind the driver's side front wheel (like the Formula Trans Ams have), but I never got around to it. Now I am running a HUGE Blackstone FMIC as big as the radiator. All I had to do to use that was lose my headlights!

The turbo 'Retta had an LG5 in it until recently, and was upgraded with the 3.4 semi-built engine I dropped in (again -the first time I had it in the engine developed no oil pressure; after swapping the oil-pump and wearing out a rod-bearing, I was done and put the LG5 back in, and dug into the 3.4 to find that the main rear crank bearing and journal were toast. It took me a while before I wanted to play with it again, but a new set of Clevite bearings and a 3.1 crankshaft that mic'ed out perfectly in spec replaced the bottom-end, and a custom set of large-pipe headers feeding a collector-box to a brand new Garrett .60-trim T-4 brought new life to the project, but now I see why no one builds turbo headers for these engines, it was a PITA, and I don't want to do it again. Even that massive T-4 clears the upper frame-side tranny mount).

It sounds like you have most of what you need to do this. The TGP's upper manifold is a little different from the LH0's, an extra port here or there, but they can interchange fine with a little creativity. You said you had a turbo-ready PROM-chip -is this compatible with your stock ECM? I would love to have a plug-and-play chip capable of reading the 2-bar MAP... The LG5s also had larger injectors. At 10 psi, you might start over-taxing your injectors -running them at very high duty-cycles can cause them to run hotter and shorten their life-span. I don't think you'll actually over-run their ability to deliver enough fuel though.

I think you are being pretty reasonable on your boost goals. I ran everything from 4 psi to 10 psi, 7 was a good middle-ground for me. I even cranked it up to 12 psi by mistake, I didn't run it that hot for long, but it seemed fine with it. I was also running my car at ~6,000 feet above sea-level, then up to 9,000 feet, so I could get away with a lot. I'm only running a few psi on the new 3.4, until I have it broken in better, especially since the turbo is brand new. That engine is also running a higher compression, in the mid 9s, rather then your 8.8:1, so I have to be cautious with it. It may not matter much though, I can't get traction without boost through third gear ...

Good luck.

http://www.beretta.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12349

^there is my turbo build thread. If you have questions or want more pics, let me know. I still haven't added any real build pictures.. maybe in the future. With my first set up I cut a stock cross over and fabbed up a y-pipe, cut the rear manifold downpipe flange and welded a plate over it... Was crude but mocked up well.

I'm going to go with most everyone on this.. $1000 goes by a lot faster than you would think when you want to boost. I spent $150 on header wrap alone.. You listed the hard parts that you need, but what about higher flow injectors, fuel pump, monitoring gauges..? I would just relocate your battery to your trunk. Relocation kits are relatively cheap. You should also note that with the rear manifold on a TGP doesn't have a downpipe. So if you want to use the TGP crossover, you'll want to get a new rear exhaust manifold. Also, the TGP crossover has a flange for a T25 which I believe to be different than a T3T4. For a 3.1 a .48 Trim T3T4 will suffice. With your "turbo Eprom" you will want to find out what injectors it is programmed for and what type of fuel pump it uses if you want to use it.

I wish you the best with your turbo adventures . But, my suggestion is to start with a 3400 and go from there. Even though you have a spare 3.1, I'd drop in a 3400 and turbo that instead.

Z26_T, I agree with most of the points you brought up, but IMO the 3.1 is better to do a cheaper boost job on than a 3x00 for a few reasons here.
1. He already has the 3.1, and buying a good 3400 could be a few hundred bucks -not a good plan if you are trying to save $$.
2. Even a good 3x00 will most likely need the updated intake manifold gaskets installed, the Felpros go for ~$80 unless they've dropped in the past few years, and you can go with the Dorman for about 1/2 that (I've used them, they looked good and functioned flawlessly, but I didn't get to put them through a long-term test...), but it still cuts into a tight budget. Without upgrading the gaskets to the metal ones, I wouldn't trust the engine N/A, let alone boosted.
3. He is working with a 1990 Beretta -the older cars are NOT a drop-in for a 3x00 engine, he will need to update the frame with newer mounts, or come up with an aftermarket or home-made front engine mount to work with the engine. Conversely, a 3.1 will drop into any era Beretta, making it more versatile.

Other than that, the extra displacement of a 3400 would give better room to grow, and the 3x00s have allegedly tougher blocks, but especially when trying to build for this application on a budget...

Also, most multi-port systems work on the same pressure-ranges, so upgrading the fuel-pump shouldn't be a serious need until running into higher boost ranges. An adjustable FPR might be more called for than a replacement fuel pump, in my experience. I've built several turbo/supercharged/engine-conversion cars, and I've not had a problem with stock pumps yet. I also haven't had to put in an adjustable FPR yet, although my turbo Z-24 has one waiting for it, and will be needing it if I push the envelope on that car any more than I've done. 9 psi on that little four-cylinder will be the limit for me, especially since the car is running with a higher compression-ratio, and 7 psi is enough for it to keep up with my SC'd 3800 GTU, at least to ~80 MPH... Neither car has enough traction anyway.

As for monitoring gauges, the sky is the limit on prices, you can spend as much as you want to. But, cheap gauges will at least give you boost info, and if you can't tune the ECM anyway, an EGT or F/A Ratio gauge is academic.

It should also be mentioned that the TGP rear manifold is a different length than the N/A 3.1, and the EGR port (if you are actually going to leave that POS in place) is placed differently between the LG5 and the LH0 -definitely try to get the TGP rear manifold.

And Z26_T, you are 100% right on the T-25 flange being different than the T3/T4 flange, so if the T-3 or T-4 is a definite go, a TGP setup will not work without modification.

Just my two-cents worth...

Yes, a 3X00 is not a direct drop in. Though well worth it in the long run. Especially if there are plans to build another engine in the future. If there are plans to build one in the future, might as well start with a better engine now. There are some mount(s?) available for a 3400 swap for j body vehicles that will work for us.
The pressures of the pumps are the same, yes. But the flows likely are not.
You might not be able to tune the e-prom, but it would be good to know if the vehicle is running dangerously lean. Thus, a Vac/Boost gauge is recommended, and so is a wideband o2 sensor.

Again, these are just my recommendations. I tried the budget build, and I regret it. I ended up wasting over $1k because I tried to cut corners. I bought the wrong ebay turbo, fuel management unit, BoV... etc.

Yah, I finally found someone who can weld.
But I do not want to push my luck. With the TGP manifold, I was considering turning the end and allowing the turbo to be in there without being in the way of existing mounts, But I checked dimensions, and the battery would have to move.
I am surprised your battery fit by the firewall. I never thought there would have been enough room if at all to place a battery back there. I was considering placing the battery in the back of the trunk like the Cobalt has, In a fire proof metal box bolted to the floor.

I stumbled upon rear mount turbo's. I knew they existed, but never really gave much thought until I found an article by accident.
I did some measuring, and in the Beretta, I can easily install the turbo within the hump under the body in place of my catalytic converter. The space is large enough for a turbo to be installed there.
Mounting it would not be that difficult as I can easily get stainless bolts, put some mounting holes, and paint it all with that hard paint.
The exhaust pipe can come down, then I can take that and go to the auto store, but those universal pipes with different bends, then clamp it all together.


I know there will be more lag with that method. With current turbo vehicles I have driven, to me, it seems like a second or two and you have boost. And thats with the manifold mount. Considering the extra 3 feet or so, I would have about 4-6 feet of pipe overall (Both exhaust and intake manifold) I'm thinking maybe 2-3 seconds lag, even if there was 4 seconds of lag, the turbo still makes boost, and saves time. I am thinking that I can rev the engine right before a take off to wind up the turbo somewhat and then take off without breaking the engine or transmission.
With that, I can take the blow off valve and move it right up next to my throttle. Or connect it to the intake manifold.
Then it does not open at the compressor when the compression starts, it opens after the compression gets to the top of the engine.

What do you think?
I'm still tossing ideas around. Although I have found what I like and everything is ready to be purchased, I'm always open to suggestions.
I'm mostly trying to get every option evaluated before I click "buy." on anything.

If I can go with the turbo being mounted under the engine in place of the Converter, That will save me around 200 dollars. I can always get a used converter that fits in a different spot until my car gets 25 years old, then I will not need the converter. I did some comparing and checking, and the intake piping will easily fit.

Only problem is the pipes can rust faster, including the turbo. And I just realized oil feed and oil return might be an issue. oh boy.

From everything I've heard from RMT builders and drivers, you won't notice the extra lag -at the speeds the gases travel, three feet is negligible. I don't like Remote-Mount Turbos mostly because of the oil (and, if applicable, coolant lines) supply/return, and you would need some sort of a pump/sump for the oil to return to the oil-pan, since the turbo would be at the same elevation as the pan. You also expose the lines to a MUCH greater chance of being damaged, and the oil system 'bleeding out' is, um, really bad. If the intake piping is damaged, you risk sucking dirt, water, etc off the road and into the engine too. On the plus side, you really wouldn't need to worry about an intercooler, as the added piping helps cool off the air-charge. If you are running higher boost levels, you can even put fins or ribbing on the piping to help the heat-exchange process along. I am still not a fan though, and there is enough room in the L-Body engine bay to not really need a RMT setup. I wouldn't recommend it.

As for the battery relocation, trunk-mounting is probably the best option. I put mine behind the engine just to keep everything close to where it needed to be and because modifying the heater-fan box was free, while running big enough cables all the way back to the trunk would have cost some money, and I don't like the idea of running that much cable if it isn't necessary. What about putting the battery on the other side, in place of the coolant reservoir?

You can even mount it back at the muffler if you want. You will still deal with the oil feed and return issues though. You will get a lot more turbo lag, though, it may be a bit benefitial. Due to the lag, you won't have to worry about traction issues as much.

If you do decide to relocate the battery to the trunk, you don't need a metal container. http://www.amazon.com/NOCO-BTMK1-Black- ... cation+kit

As for mounting the turbo under the center of the vehicle, remember that you need a air filter on there also.. Most cone filters are nearly the same size as a T3T4.