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Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:38 am
by 1988GTU
Def put some enamel or maybe por15 ( ? ) on the new studs if you should buy another set (I'd recommend arp again) .
Sucks about the situation though, but like ya said, conditions were ideal for something like this to happen to a product that was susceptible to the issue on hand in the first place.
Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:29 am
by 3X00-Modified
Barry wrote:If you want to go back to bolts I have a full set of 3500 bolts. I don't know if there stretch bolts or not though.
All GM stock head bolts are the stretch kind, and no way in hell will I use GM stretch bolts again, especially with the MLS headgaskets I'm using. I want a perfect even seal. Also those are not the same steel as ARP's thats why they dont rust the same.
Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:30 pm
by Money pit Beretta
You could say that GM doesn't say that their bolts won't rust too. I think if you are paying for something better it should be like stock but stronger. It's just good business. If a good amount of people ask for something then the company will do it. If eveybody stays quiet then nothing will be done. All I'm saying is that they could make street bolts or an OEM replacement that is stronger. Don't worry, I'm going to stop here on this. I've said what I wanted to say.
Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:40 am
by 3X00-Modified
I'm sure I could find a set of ARP bolts to do the job, But why bother, they are all coated the same from what I am finding.
As I noted before most likely ALL of this was because of how the engine was treated. I'm almost 100% positive they would NOT warranty their bolts to be put in a dialy driven application and survive through a salty winter with weird weather conditions that would result in condensation.
Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:52 am
by Asylum
Interesting that the ARP stud kit is $179.99 at WOT and $109.95 at Summit (233-4303)
Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:14 am
by 3X00-Modified
Thats a 2.8L Gen2 head stud kit.
they dont have a kit for the gen3 aluminum heads, its a pieced together setup with certain lengths and thread, and IIRC the bolts in the iron head kit are not long enough.
Ben is as cheap as you can get for the kit, Alamo Motorsports will only get down to $2-3 more expensive than Ben thats as low as they can go. And those are drop shipped to you direct from ARP.
Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:22 am
by Asylum
But I'm going to look into it.
They do state 1980-1993 so there may be some confusion here.
Although WOT uses the same part code for ALL fwd engines.
Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:34 am
by 3X00-Modified
I'll tell you as soon as I get a reply to my e-mail
Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:47 am
by Asylum
As I recall the 3.1 and the 3100 use the same head bolts don't they?
Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:51 am
by 3X00-Modified
Nevermind, Found it on 60*
Thats what i first thought it was, its an Iron head kit... Not even the aluminum head 2.8L version. But you were right Gen2 and Gen3 heads take the same kit, but since ARP doesn't have a Gen2 aluminum head kit we have nothing but individual part numbers.
You can see the length differences.
Bolts/Studs
All part numbers listed below are ARP part numbers. Only the kit numbers are part numbers are from ARP, the rest of the info is from personal experience with the following parts.
Here's is the stud info for the Gen II and Gen III aluminum heads.
8 - Undercut Long studs (11mm x 1.5 & 7/16" - 20) - ATP5.4LU
8 - Undercut Short studs (11mm x 1.5 & 7/16" - 20) - ATP4.650LU
16 - Hex Nuts (7/16" - 20) - APN58 or 12 point nuts (7/16" - 20) - APN12-1
16 - Washers (7/16" ID 13/16 OD) - APW1316N
These studs are under cut, which means that the OD diameter of the shaft is less then the OD of the threads. This actually makes the stud stronger because the OD of the stud is the same the entire length of the stud, instead of being necked down at the threads.
Cast iron head stud info.
Kit with Hex nuts - 233-4003 includes the following
8 - Short stud (11mm x 1.5 & 7/16" - 2) ATP3.75L
8 - Long studs (11mm X 1.5 & 7/16" - 20) - ATP4.65L
16 - Hex Nuts (7/16" - 20) - APN58
16 - Washers (7/16" ID 13/16 OD) - APW1316N
Kit with 12-point nuts - 233-4303 includes the following
8 - Short stud (11mm x 1.5 & 7/16" - 2) ATP3.75L
8 - Long studs (11mm X 1.5 & 7/16" - 20) - ATP4.65L
16 - 12 point nuts (7/16" - 20) - APN12-1
16 - Washers (7/16" ID 13/16 OD) - APW1316N
You could use the "long" bolts from that kit in the short location for the 3400 and 3500, but thats about it, you still need the 5.4" length bolt for the interior head studs.
Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:03 am
by 3X00-Modified
Other thing I noticed, is the iron head kits are not "undercut" bolts, I wonder if thats why they are much cheaper. I know the length does not add that much in price. Also if they have a non undercut bolt in the 5.4 length with 11x1.5 and 7/16" threads then that could possibly bring our kit price down quite a bit. They obviously make a 4.65 length one in non undercut since thats in the iron head kit.
Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:53 am
by Asylum
I just got off the phone with ARP and "someone" is making a boatload of money on these sets for our cars!!
However they won't sell individual studs except in bulk.
That said, we would probably have to come up with a Group Buy of about 20 sets for them to consider selling them to me.
Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:13 pm
by 3X00-Modified
What did you get for prices, approximately 100 bux for a set of 10 studs washers and nuts for the two variations? Even that cheap, you figure 4 sets of each gets you 5 setups to sell so thats 800 investment or so to sell 5 sets to a 3x00 crowd, that equates to 160 a set. So $179 sale price from WOT isn't that bad. I also do not know if he is buying that many either, so he may buy what he KNOWS he can sell which in turn yes will raise the price.
I'm not out to pin anyone against a wall on what they are making since there is quite a bit of overhead to get these bolts, and then the seller has to make some money otherwise they wouldn't be in the distribution and R&D area for our cars.
I'm glad I can get a kit for $180 + shipping, I just wish they wouldn't rust like they did for me.
Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:30 pm
by Asylum
If I buy enough for 20 sets (160, 160, 320, 320 of each) I can net them for about $85 a set plus shipping, which I'm pretty sure is what Ben is likely paying.
But as stated you have to lay out the cash, hope you sell the damn things and ship to Lord knows where. They WILL NOT drop ship on a Group Buy at that price.
Re: January 2010 Project Begins (Raspberry)
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:35 pm
by 3X00-Modified
Thats damn near $2000 worth of bolts... And I'm not sure if Ben is doing them to that volume... He may not be, and I know when I go to order them from Alamo they wanted 11.01 for the short stud, and 12.25 for the long... Thats a very high mark up, so when it comes down to it, Ben IS the cheapest route.
Bulk is always better but never feasible for the end user. Only when you buy more than you'll ever need does the price become reasonable, but then you just wasted money on parts you wont use, or can't sell.