Starter Upgrades

[Koots]

I've been looking into replacing the starter in my 95 with a newer style permanent magnet (PMGR with a PGXXXX OEM part #) starter that GM started to use in 99-2000+ Has anyone done this on any of their vehicles?

The 2.2/3.1/3.4/3.5's all share the same starter from what I've been gathering. I've got a perfectly fine, but large and heavy, Direct Drive (DD) starter, but it's sooo close to my header that it worries me. I'm planning on wrapping the header and "ceramic" painted the case of the starter to protect it, but it's still too close to the exhaust Plus dropping 3-4lbs from a 14lb. starter can't hurt and they are also more powerful.

I was thinking something like this, if I can't find a good used example for cheap around town:

http://www.dbelectrical.com./p-970-new- ... 01-05.aspx

[woody90gtz]

Grab one from a 3400 car in the yard. That's where I got mine and it was like $25.

[Koots]

In my area, we don't use salt on the roads and only have freshwater around, so the applicable vehicles are very rarely left to die. Might be able to find from a Malibu orImpala or something though.

[Koots]

I just remembered I have a spare PG260 starter, but it came out of my 6.0L truck and has a slightly different part number and a slightly higher kw rating. They do have the same teeth count (11-teeth), so my only guess as to what might be different is the nose cone. The starter is pretty small, as it has very little room under the factory shorty headers on the LS-truck motors, so I don't think it's any bigger than the average 2000-era starter.

Tonight, I'm gonna pull my direct drive starter out and test fit the 6.0L GR starter. If anything is different, I should be able to modify it to work.

[woody90gtz]

In my area, we don't use salt on the roads and only have freshwater around, so the applicable vehicles are very rarely left to die. Might be able to find from a Malibu orImpala or something though.

That must be nice! Around here most cars 10 years old are rotten.

[Koots]

In my area, we don't use salt on the roads and only have freshwater around, so the applicable vehicles are very rarely left to die. Might be able to find from a Malibu orImpala or something though.

That must be nice! Around here most cars 10 years old are rotten.

The difference is that our climate is sandy/dusty and can get dry and harsh, which is hell on engines/transmissions/axles. It's all the lovely stuff you can't see without taking it all apart, which makes buying used vehicles really hard.

When I lived in other parts of the country, the bodies were rusted, the paint was shot, but the car was mechanically sound otherwise, Which I was not used to at all.

[Koots]

EDIT: The starter out of the LS-motors, while identical in most all ways, is installed facing the other way on the engine block than our longitudinal motors, which means it's gonna be more than just a bolt up job, if it will fit at all.

If not, DBElectrical sells new replacement starter motors and solenoids mounted onto GM applicable nose cones, for less than $60, so it's not gonna be too hard to find the right one, brand new, for a good price.

[99GaGT3X00]

why are you looking at LS based starters.. $25 shipped from ebay for one that fits your engine..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/97-98-99-00-01- ... 18&vxp=mtr

[Koots]

It's because I have one sitting in my shop, with low miles. So I decided to investigate, realized it's not gonna work and had to finish up the thought I started earlier.

Thanks for the link but shipping is too much for a used part from most places. If I can't find it used in town for cheap, then It's best to just order brand new if I have to get it sent in.

[Rettax3]

Hmm, while I understand both the concerns about the size/weight of your original starter and the desire for a more powerful cranking force (though on a close-to-stock 2.2? ), I would actually recommend keeping the old starter on there.

The newer starters tend to draw less amperage from the battery than the old monsters, which helps save the battery, plus. They are smaller, more compact. Plus. They weigh less, plus. Because of their size, they are even easier to swap-out... Plus. Something about them seems to make them wear out three times faster, so that easier swapability will come in handy, MINUS. I have literally had to change out THREE of those little buggers for every ONE I've had of the old bigger starters fail, and I am talking OEM factory units, not rebuilds or cheap repros, either. Figure I've had those older starters around a lot longer than the newer ones, too. I don't know why, maybe the heavier cases help dissipate heat better, or maybe they are stiffer and don't flex and wear parts that aren't supposed to come into contact, or maybe it is simply 'they don't make 'em like they used to', but whatever the reason, the newer smaller starters are just not as durable in my experience. But, if you do go that route, it might be worth it just to buy one with a warranty (go lifetime) from a local auto-parts store, if you have one nearby. Good luck.

[Koots]

I do like the reliability of the direct drive starters, but the gear reduction starters are rock solid in the winter time, which until I move, is still going to be an important factor to think of.

I had to switch to a gear reduction starter in my 6.2 diesel (21:1 compression!!) because the direct drive just couldn't spin it over in -40 and colder, unless I had the 2 block heaters, plus the 2 battery heaters all plugged in at once. The gear reduction start will spin the motor, regardless of ambient temperature. It's not much of a concern with my little 2.2L gasser, but I was impressed by their general power. The DD starter was awesome in the summer months though, as it could start the truck with just a twist of the ignition. In the dead of winter, if it wasn't plugged in, the starter would drain the 2 batteries within about 5 seconds of cranking time. I went through 3 sets of batteries (at $120/each) in one winter because of all of that lol

I also hear you on them not lasting very long. I've had luck with this Napa reman for the last 2 years though and a factory ACDelco starter from a low-mileage 04 parts truck.

[Koots]

Also, my header is about 1" away from the back of the starter, maybe tighter at certain points. So that's why I was concerned about starter size.

I've got the outer case painted in ceramic paint (VHT flameproof is decent stuff, if taken care of) which should help some, along with a solenoid heat shield. I might invest in some header wrap too, just to keep the collector flange from smacking the oil pan, if that is an issue.

[Rettax3]

I think the header wrap is your best solution, that and the solenoid heat-shield should be enough.
I do hear what you are saying about the battery-drain issue for sure, and maybe replacing the starter once or twice is worth the wear-and-tear saved on the battery, I just see batteries as consumable parts that only last 5-7 years anyway, and I want my starter to last longer than that. Besides, not all reduction starters will actually fry that quickly, I just don't see that they as durable.

I have had bad luck with VHT Flameproof, but I also put it directly on the headers I built for my 3400/3.1 turbo hybrid in my '90 'Retta (it is supposed to be okay on headers, after all ). It disintegrated within one month, it may have been an issue with the aluminized coating on the pipes I used too, but if I ever use it again I will use the primer first.

[Koots]

I've got it painted on some stuff, but it's not very durable, but neither is a true ceramic coating either.

A true ceramic coating process, baked in at 400+ degrees F*, is stronger than the VHT stuff though. I just know that both can be easily chipped by metal to metal contact.

Anyway, the GR starter is physically smaller in diameter, but I don't believe it's any shorter, based on what I can tell from the internet. But it's hard to get any concrete info on these things, because it's not something people commonly measure. If it's not any shorter than it's not gonna help much, as most of the body of the starter is away from the header (just the back cap).

I got some header wrap ordered, plus a resonator for my exhaust. I need 6" of 2.25" pipe and figured a small resonator would be a wise choice in exhaust real estate.

[Rettax3]

I actually had one of the smaller GR starters on the LG5 turbo 3.1 originally in my turbo 'Retta for a short time, I also wanted the smaller, lighter, etc., and it cleared the oil-return from the turbo better than the old bigger starter did. IIRC, it was somewhere around 3/4" (~19mm) shorter than the DD starter. BTW, that was one of the GRs I had that failed within a few years... I have the original 3.1 DD starter back on that car now, and despite the higher compression and 10% bigger pistons I'm not having any trouble cranking it either... I think I may have a3400 GR starter around here somewhere (in pieces, I remember taking it apart to see if I could build one good starter out of two bad ones), if you can confirm it is the same thing you need, I'll put it back together and take a measurement for you, just let me know if it is applicable, and if you want metric or inch measurements...