High Idle, Speedometer doesn't work

[Bensam123]

Hey guys, so the forums here have been a great resource for finding out more information about my Beretta. I have a 93 3.1L base automatic. Recently I've ran into some issues and possible schenanagins.

The back right boot started leaking break fluid, after taking it apart we encountered a part that we couldn't get off so we took it into Autoselect, who promptly fixed it, bled the breaks, refilled it, for a really low price of $65 plus the $8 part... which is where all the problems started. The breaks now work fine.

However, now the rest of the car has went to crap. The speedometer and tach has stopped working the day after getting it back (the trip doesn't work but hasn't for years). The rest of gauges in the cluster work fine. The car started idling really rough, like it was choking occasionally (and it smelled really rich), however it fixed itself... only now it idles really high. It works fine when running at normal speeds or highway speeds, its only when idling.

The other weird thing that started happening is the engine fan stays on all the time now, no matter what unless it's turned off for about 20 minutes. It isn't running hot and besides the high idle it sounds normal.


So after doing some searching around here I thought I found some answers. I thought it was a plugged EGR, but after cleaning it, it didn't change anything. So I tried changing the idle air controller, that didn't do anything. I thought it was because the speedometer was broken and the computer wouldn't reset because it was reading 0. I tried changing out the speed sensor, but that also didn't change anything. Still idles high, speedometer doesn't work, fan is always on.

This could be a computer problem, but it's sort of weird that all this stuff started going bad after taking it to the mechanic, especially since I was given such a good price. I'd like to think the best of people, but it definitely seems like possible foul play. If anyone has any sort of ideas I'm all ears.

[yellow3800]

Too bad we can't just throw money at things to get them fixed! thats everywhere though, not limited to cars...

must ensure that service eng soon is extinguished. clean the electronics that its griping about before fixing ones that aren't because they could trip up others. problems must be fixed in a certain order.

can you do that? its hard sometimes. Is it out already? remember, it must be on, key fwd, engine off as a light bulb check. otherwise it hides.

I don't think anyone would break this. its not a dealer servicing an audi, or new bmw or something.

some things to consider: WIRE wiggling. I haven't seen wires break down in our cars here on a massive scale yet, though its possible.

WIGGLE the computer connector wires on the back of the computer when the car is running its rough self.

Pull the computer and check the pins for corrosion and connectors for the same. put some di-electric grease on it and re-install if okay.

wiggle the dash connector behind the instrument panel in the dash - this must be done by removing and replacing the cluster as it cannot be accessed from behind.

as far as the fan running all the time - investigate that A/C relay socket and relay. I won't get into that here because I'd type a few chapters. the fan turns on when the a/c switch is enguaged. if it thinks its engauged, it may be on instead of thinking you have a high temp coolant temp problem.

oh, and verify those vacuum lines are shut. don't even look for them, just unplug and block them at the throttle body and if the idle lowers, then the leak is downstream. thats a quick and dirty way to check that. also, unplug that brake booster line and cap that with your finger too - if the booster seal goes bad, and Ive had this happen before, your idle goes up!



break a leg!

andy

[woody90gtz]

The back right boot started leaking break fluid,

The back right boot? I am unfamiliar with your terminology here, just looking for some clarification. Are you talking about the wheel cylinder or brake line at the back right wheel or something else?

Idle on my Beretta went up with a bad booster from the master cylinder leaking fluid in to the booster. I could also hear a slight hiss with my foot on the brake pedal. Brakes performed perfect, but the vacuum leak caused problems for the ECM.

I agree with yellow3800...the first thing I'd look at the vacuum lines and plug them off to see if it drops the idle. Being that they were doing brakes I'd look at the big line from the manifold to the booster first.

[Bensam123]

The cylinder was leaking fluid, one of the rubber things in it was broken. I don't remember what it was called.

I don't have a lot of experience with repairs, so it definitely would be helpful if you include the location of the lines. I tried the one from the transmission to the side of the car (it goes in the frame and I don't know where it goes). Where is the break booster line?

[Bensam123]

Update on my earlier post that's not approved yet.

I tried taking the hose off the back of the manifold, which I assume is the one you're talking about (photo included) and plugged it. This didn't change the idle, but instead made the car run rough, so I put the hose back on.

After turning the ignition on and off a few times, without starting, the car decided it was done idling high and now it went back to the earlier 'rough' idle. Instead of idling about the usual 600RPMs, it idles at 350~ which eventually causes it to stall. I decided to take it down the highway for a little bit and the back to see if it cleared this up (which is needed for the new IAC). It still idled rough after bringing it home, but after shutting it off, the fan was no longer constantly running. Starting it back up about two minutes later, the idle condition is still the same, about 350 RPMs, stalls, only the fan runs all the time again. I let it sit for 20 minutes and it still did it.

When I was turning the ignition on and off (without starting it), the engine light only flashed on and didn't stay on (about a half a second). One of the times the engine light stayed on, but after turning it off and on it went away. The engine light hasn't stayed on any of the times this has happened. My brother said it flashed on and off really quickly a week ago when he was driving it, but that stopped after about a half a minute.


Some other things worth noting:

While my brother was driving it on the highway a week ago (when this all started happening), he said the speedometer started working for about 3 minutes again and stopped at that time. This was also the drive when the flash engine light went on and off really fast for about 30 seconds.

My brother in all his infinite knowledge tried adjusting the idle screw for the engine to fix it. It apparently didn't change anything and he said he set it back to where it was before adjusting it, but that could be wrong and the cause for the rough idle if the IAC is now fixed.

The EGR valve I cleaned I may not have put solenoids on the right direction (I took the whole thing apart). I have included photos. If you guys could, please take a look and let me know if it's on the right direction. While the valve itself is slotted, the solenoids are not so they can be rotated without the right valves being in the right spot on the valve. I put it back with the flat edge facing the flat part of the valve, which I assume was the right way.

The dash cluster in addition to the speedometer not functioning properly, one of the lights is either burned out or not working. I didn't originally notice this or it recently stopped working. It's in between the speedometer and tachometer.


I definitely appreciate the input guys. This may indeed be a loose wire somewhere, by added compounded problems. I originally thought the mechanic may have unhooked or loosened a easy to access wire somewhere either intentionally or on accident, if anyone knows of something like that let me know. I checked out all the easy to access wires inside the engine compartment, but have not taken apart the dash.

I don't know where the ECM is or how to access that, if you guys could offer some advice on that I'd be much appreciated.

[woody90gtz]

If your master cylinder was leaking then the booster is suspect. There is a big hose that goes from the manifold to the booster right next to the master cylinder. Take that hose off the booster and leave it plugged in to the manifold. Once the hose is unplugged you will need to cover the end of the hose with your finger to seal it off. See if the car changes.

[2.2H8TA]

Does the odometer still work? Just a random question I guess. Flashing CEL, or SES light usally means a misfire was detected I belive. Your computer may be the problem. They do crap out in these cars, more often then before now it seems, due to age and just normal wear on these cars. (Damn water leaks!) Grab a new ECM, or whatever you choose to call it, and try it, see what happens if you wanna throw a few parts at it. Can't hurt.

[Bensam123]

So after looking up the price of the ECM, it's only like $100 (not 300 I had imagined), I'll probably end up replacing it as all the problems seem to be happening at once and it seems the most likely candidate. A few mechanics I've talked to have said it could be a vacuum problem, but that doesn't take into account the dead speedometer and I have yet to find said leaky hose.

Is there any specific ECM I should buy or stay away from? Is there any advice for installing a new one?

autopartswarehouse
/sku/Chevrolet/Beretta/A1_Cardone/Engine_Control_Module/1993/Base/6_Cyl_3-dot-1L/A1777730.html
/sku/Chevrolet/Beretta/AC_Delco/Engine_Control_Module/1993/Base/6_Cyl_3-dot-1L/AC88999196.html
/sku/Chevrolet/Beretta/Standard/Engine_Control_Module/1993/Base/6_Cyl_3-dot-1L/SIEM7730.html

Odometer doesn't work, speedometer doesn't work, tachometer doesn't work (but that's been busted for awhile).

I also found out the place I took it to in order to have the front wheels aligned apparently fucked up the alignment of the front left tire so it's been running slightly to the inside edge for the last 10,000 miles or so and I have bare wire sticking out of the side of the tire.

[Bensam123]

Update on this guys. It was the ECM. After replacing that everything works fine and dandy again. The dashlight is still blown out.

Another thing I found upon changing the speed sensor is the front left tire wasn't properly aligned anymore. It appears to have been like that for awhile resulting in one of the tires wearing improperly and the wires coming through in one area. So it may actually be good that this happened or the tire would've properly blown out at one point or another.

[yellow3800]

lets focus on one thing at a time here so we don't get too goofed up.. or I, or rather, me.

we don't know how your car WILL run with the car sitting in its parking space. It should behave normally to this point [no wet: fuel, oil , brake fluid on the ground] right? okay, so I want to focus on this computer service light before we look at how it runs because it fails a check before we even start the car. ...we dont care how it runs yet. The computer could already be messing up. If you had an Audi, your windows may not even go up! [been there too]

You say your orange service engine light goes out with key on, engine OFF. IT SHOULD NOT. At this point, Im thinking there is an open - a surge of power makes the connection, then lets go when power lessens, like a light bulb that needs a tap to stay on. anyway, if it does go off, I want you to grab that computer harness at the computer junction and wiggle those connectors while the light is off/on and see if you can glitch it to either on/off with engine off at first, and if no luck, with it running. you should not be able to change its mind. If you have no influence, the next step is: remove it and remove the board from the metal case.

The computer is behind the glovbox mounted vertically to the outer wall best accessed through the hush-panel [black plastic under dash where the floor light is].

Pull glove box out, if its in the way, you may remove it...4 5.5mm screws I think. I should remember this. Try just pulling the drawer out first for room.

remove hush panel - this is 7mm screws, and maybe that 10mm on the firewall in the corner.
the computer is mounted with the one 10mm nut at the bottom of the mount you can see. remove that if the above wiggle check fails with the connectors. remember to check connectors on the wire harness and computer itself for corrosion. If its light, you may be able to clean it and put some anti-corrosive spray or goo on it. it all depends on where it is.

the computer may be held at the top by two vertical plastic guide pins, so pull in the direction that the 10mm screw/bolt/nut was ,then it should drop down when clearing the shelf part of the mount at the bottom. that should be it.

take it apart on the bench - the case uses 1/4" screws.


...now with your aluminum computer case on the bench, and no obvious corrosion on connectors or computer pins in their connectors, walk back to the car with the actual computer board, plug in the computer [don't let it get static shock, so no rubbing your elbows on the carpet sliding to plug it back in while wearing a sweatshirt or the big fuzzy sweater your aunt gave you].

I tell you this because my lemon3800 car had corrosion on the board pins causing erratic idle. It began to creep into things and corrosion was the problem. my 89gt had a bad board that was not visible. by the way, save your chip because its probably fine. if your board is bad, car-part. com [or ebay] if you lack a local yard with beretta equivalent computers [you'll see a computer box part # soon] and $40 is easy to pay for one. I bought three! lol

I found the 89gt problem by starting the car with computer plugged in, and letting the car idle. I want you to try this with engine off first to see if we can get the light to come on and off. grab the computer [again, out of its case] key on, engine off, and twist it back and forth and see if the light comes on when you tweak it one way, and goes out when you tweak it another. If it does this, then it may take a minute to figure which way does what. Either way, we know the result that the board is or isn't causing that light to turn on and off.

My cars don't leak. If yours does, then that must be fixed.

I would not do this had you said the car runs fine - it doesn't. What we would do, since we don't know how the car runs as it sits in the parking space off, is check the ses wire itself. the computer is more likely, so we'd look into this still because its part of the circuit.

honestly, a bad computer is better than a failing harness that we have to rewire. its easier and takes less time.

Let us know how it goes!

you may have it easy by reading a part # or ECM/ECU # on the case, possibly on that little door tab thingy that covers the chip with the 4 digits on it. we don't care of the 4 digits. I think the # is like 22555990 or something.

I probably missed something, so post questions.

Andy

[1988GTU]

borrow, find,goto autozone and see if they can scan it or if you can get a scanner/reader to look at coolant temp. I might have a bad cts sensor for the fan to be always on.

[yellow3800]

a haynes manual is wonderful too. Haynes manuals have a good section on how to scan the car yourself. [1993 is still OBD I right guys?]

If its a bad computer all the time, it wont scan/read/give codes.

You can find that info on bnet.