3800 Series III Turbo...

[nocutt]

(Posted by IsaacHayes on Mar. 28 2006 @ 02:33)Q
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ESo do you have a powertuner in your hands now? Curious to see how KR is and at what boost you will be seeing.. Can't wait till you start to run and tune it!!

Yeah I have a tuner...I hope I do not see too much KR, considering I made big changes...I was able to knock KR doen on old setup...although I was able to induce retard using a blackbox...this time I intend to run full timing and only remove it when the tranny is shifting... I hope!?!?

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ESo 3" over the rear axle cleared?

...sure did, surprised me...however it will be definately tricky with stock appearing springs...

[berettaspeed]

2 bar at summit racing for 40 bucks new.... i got one from  a guy on the GTP boards for 10 bucks.

I plan on running 3" from the front sway bar to the rear bumper... but ill have some eibachs so i hope i clear.. i can always cut away at things if needed. LOL  get some more angles of that exhaust

[IsaacHayes]

nocutt: with the power you should be making I pray for your tranny. The 4t65-eHD's would have a hard enough time with your motor!

berettaspeed: a 2 bar what? MAP? is that compatible with stock computer? Ah you have 89, so I assume you will get a TGP chip.. got ya. You have old style smaller gas tank so that helps for your 3".

[rweatherford]

Both of these cars are older with smaller tanks.  I didn't think it would clear with mine, but it might.  

[nocutt]

IssacHayes Posted on: Mar. 29 2006+01:03-->(IssacHayes Posted on: Mar. 29 2006 @ 01:03)Q
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Enocutt: with the power you should be making I pray for your tranny. The 4t65-eHD's would have a hard enough time with your motor!


To be honest if not for the electronic parts in the 65e* (* some other things implied here also) I have not seen the big difference in the ability to hold power when compared to the 60e. I really feel the key to this trannies lie in the way power is delivered and a function of abuse...we will see.  The tranny has survived almost 9 yrs of relative torture, at least hope it can do another 3  


BerettaSpeed Posted on: Mar. 28 2006+22:12-->(BerettaSpeed Posted on: Mar. 28 2006 @ 22:12)Q
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I plan on running 3" from the front sway bar to the rear bumper... but ill have some eibachs so i hope i clear.. i can always cut away at things if needed...

LOL...What is the size of your turbine outlet?

[IsaacHayes]

Hmm. The GTP guys always talk trash on the 60, like it's way worse than their 65/HD. Speaking of trannies make sure to take out the TM with the powertunner so it doesn't cut fuel eek!

[Conscious]

(IsaacHayes @ Mar. 31 2006,13:19)Q
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E The GTP guys always talk trash on the 60, like it's way worse than their 65/HD

IsaacHayes, this is a snippet from fellow fiero member's site Darthfiero who does a lot of programming and work for 3800 SC/turbo fieros

http://dtcc.cz28.com/tech.htm

"This topic applies to those who are contemplating engine swaps using automatic transmissions with overdrive.  If you are interested in going with a non-electronic version, you have two choices: 440-T4 and 4T60.  The 440-T4 was introduced around the mid 80's and had many changes and upgrades during its lifetime.  In the early 90's, its name changed to 4T60 but its use was discontinued before the 1993 model year.  Basically, the 4T60 contains all of the updates, upgrades, and fixes for problems that plagued the early 440-T4's.  If you decide to go with a 440-T4 because of availability or price, I suggest you get the newest one you can.  The 440-T4 and 4T60 are stronger than the 125-C 3-speed auto but slightly weaker than the 4T60-E.

If you plan on using an electronic OD automatic trans, then you have a couple of choices:  4T60-E or 4T65-E.  The 4T60-E transmission was pressed into service in 1991 and was used until 1999.  There was a Heavy-Duty version that was available in 1996 that came attached to 3800 Series II Supercharged (L67) engines.  The 4T60-E transmissions will work with EITHER an OBDI or OBDII computer system, however they use a vacuum modulator to control line pressure.  In my opinion, this feature is an advantage over the 4T65-E transmission when used in conjunction with turbocharged engines because the modulator can more accurately compensate for engine load based on what it senses from boost/vacuum of the intake manifold.  The non-HD versions are slightly weaker than the HD versions of both the 4T60-E and 4T65-E but many people including myself have been using the regular 4T60-E's in high-HP applications without any failures.

The 4T65-E came in two versions: HD and non-HD.  The non-HD 4T65-E has only a few marginally stronger internal components compared to the 4T60-E.  The 4T65-E HD transmission is rated as the strongest FWD transmission GM makes next to the Cadillac 4T80-E.  However, the 4T65-E's had their share of issues as well.  They rely on a computer controlled pressure solenoid to control line pressure.  Some people have reported failures of this component which can lead to transmission burnup if not replaced immediately.  There is one more thing to watch out for when using these transmissions; some years allegedly used an input shaft that was machined different than other years which actually made them weaker.  I don't have exact info on this but I do know this issue doesn't seem to affect the 4T60-E transmissions"

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E... Speaking of trannies make sure to take out the TM with the powertunner so it doesn't cut fuel eek!
I did not know the 4t60-E have the TM program like the newer 4t65-E?!?! So do you take out the TM as a whole or just tweak whatever it is that needs to be tweaked?
It sure will be nice to have the ability to do this

Nocutt more pics, I want my weekly dosage of pics ÂÂÂ

[Conscious]

So we can see two sides, here is another from thrasher:
http://thrashercharged.com/tech_htm/FAQ-4t65E.shtm


1.  I've heard that the '97 and newer Grand Prix GT has a weaker 4T60e transmission, while the GTP and Regal GS have the stronger 4T65e transmission.  Is this true?

No, not exactly.  The Grand Prix GT and SE with the normally aspirated 3800 (that's without supercharger) L36 engines do have a weaker transmission than the GTP with the L67 3800 SC, but it's not a 4T60e, except in 1997, which is really an oddball year.  All '98 and newer L36 engines have a 4T65e, but they have the light duty version, RPO code M15.  All L67 engines have the 4T65e HD, meaning heavy duty (RPO code MN7).  The differences?  The MN7 version have a larger differential, and due to the larger differential, the output shaft on a MN7 is about 1/4 inch longer. The MN7 also have a stronger input sun gear, and have roller bearings on the differential housing whereas the light duty 4T65e have a bushing instead.  There may be some other minor differences inside, but these are the major ones.  Can you convert a light duty trans to a MN7?  Yes, but those pieces are a bit pricey.  

By the way, the 4T60e (RPO code M13) is a much lighter duty transmission than any 4T65e.  These were found behind the Series 1 3800 SC engine (the 225 HP version) found from '92-'96, and behind the 3100 and 3400 engines, and apparently behind the L36, normally aspirated 3800 in '97 (that's the '97 GT).

the question now is can anyone put money on it  

[nocutt]

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EOriginally posted by Conscious: Posted on: Mar. 31 2006,01:34
I did not know the 4t60-E have the TM program like the newer 4t65-E?!?! So do you take out the TM as a whole or just tweak whatever it is that needs to be tweaked?
It sure will be nice to have the ability to do this

Yes apparently the 60E has programming for TM all over several folders...they all need to be tweaked  

[IsaacHayes]

Conscious: Perhaps the difference isn't that great between the two. not sure what the max trq#'s are for both of the trans, I forget. But I would think that every bit helps, but at these such high power levels, the difference probably won't help one last longer over the other! (other than perhaps the vacuum modulated issue, which may make a big difference)

nocutt: so what year PCM are you using? Or did you have the l67 (I know your motor isn't that now, lol) pcm and then edited in code for a 4t60-e? It just amazes me that there's code in the computer to protect the transmision because the engine they put on it is too powerfull for it! lol Why can't they just build a trans tough enough that there is no TM and you can use the motor (stock at least) to the fullest!?! grrr Of course why can't we have RWD 6spd in every GM car option?  

The fuel cut is the most important TM to eliminate. The others can probably be just tweaked.

x2 on the pics

[nocutt]

(IsaacHayes @ Mar. 31 2006,19:58)Q
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Enocutt: so what year PCM are you using? Or did you have the l67 (I know your motor isn't that now, lol) pcm and then edited in code for a 4t60-e? It just amazes me that there's code in the computer to protect the transmision because the engine they put on it is too powerfull for it! lol Why can't they just build a trans tough enough that there is no TM and you can use the motor (stock at least) to the fullest!?! grrr Of course why can't we have RWD 6spd in every GM car option?  

The fuel cut is the most important TM to eliminate. The others can probably be just tweaked.

x2 on the pics
1997 buick lesabre PCM...



I feel you on the FWD trans, but from a conglomerate like GM... point of view is quite different, $$$  
Most at least GM trans that use electronic assist shifting (electronic trans) all use some form of TM. In my case it is why the TM folder is 'dispersed' in several application. My philosophy is use this ends for means...when I had the SII 3800...I did not have access to the the PCM so I used a blackbox to remove timing when I was shifting...especially 1-2 shifts. Now I can do this much savvy because I can reflect this changes directly in the PCM. To me fuel-cut is only part...timing (spark) is another variable to contend with in TM...like low RPM (eg spinning tires etc, etc).
10q

[IsaacHayes]

Yes, deep down I really know why they added TM.
Were you running a different PCM before you had the powertuner? I ask because your pcm obvisouly is l36, with l67 tables pasted in now..

Fuel cut will most likely be removed, timing/spark can be edited to to your advantage, is what I meant. You're right so nice to have access to the computer. Good idea on reducing power to limit wheel spin. I never even thought of that with a powertuner!

[nocutt]

So I have added my time up...I will need a succesful 48hrs NET to get this thing were it would drive from point A to B.
Today I was able to find the MAF problem...bad ground...what a headache...chasing a simple circuit from the PCM...then another problem arose, the TP sensor took a dive. Well cannot blame that...it is more than 20yrs old   (fiero TPS)...

I have been doing some research on 2 BAR-Map sensors, the issue with my case was trying to avoid using the 'old stlye MAP' because the L36 uses the new Gen slimmer MAPs. I had seen one on a customers SS cobalt took the pigtail off and locked that pic into memory. IT BE FITTING LIKE A GLOVE, no modification to stock pigtail.
here:



...Although this MAP is actually a 2.5bar MAP...I will only program it to the GTP's 2 bar .bin.

[nocutt]

...Drop problem...3" comes with its own issues...mine for the most part lays here:

[nocutt]

I unfortunately cannot drop it that far down...I wanted to do a whole 1", but the rear beam did not think so...I am sure I can play with it, but I will have to wait till I get the time to put the car on a 4-corner weighing scale. For now I drop it just low enough that it wasn't an issue...