Oil Question...

[RobertISaar]

why would you run 10W anything if a 5W or 0W alternative exists?

[Beretta1234567]

why would you run 10W anything if a 5W or 0W alternative exists?

Depends on temperatures outside and how fast and how well you want the oil to lubricate the engine.

These engines (2.8L MPFI; 3.1L MPFI; 3.4 MPFI; 3.8 MPFI; 3100 SFI; 3400 SFI; 2.2 MPFI/SFI; 2.0 MPFI/SFI; 2.4 MPFI/SFI) were originally designed for 5w-30 and 10w-30 depending on the weather, I went to 5w40 and 10w40 in my 2.8 v6 because I was starting to get a little low pressure and some ticking on top, once I went to heavier oil, the ticking went away and it has been fine.

When parts wear, the slop opens up, so the higher weight oil helps pick up some of that slop and helps keep it from being a problem.
With newer engines designed for stuff like 5w-20 and such, its recommended to keep it like that as the slack/slop in the moving parts is very small and the oil is thin enough to fix, but thick enough to still lubricate.

A lot of times 5w is to thin in the summer, and I'm talking around 60' F and up; it just doesn't lubricate it like it should.
When it gets around or below 30-40'F I switch to 5w40 so when it gets to below minus 20'F its not to thick and starts up.

idk, that's what I know about oil, hope it helps.

[RobertISaar]

at full operating temp, a 0W, 5W and 10W oil for a given grade(30, 40, 50) are all more or less the same viscosity. the differences between them is when they're under that temp(212*F), the lower the W number, the better it flows.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/

there's a good start. a 10W vs a 0W is quite apparent on the oil pressure guage when the engine is warming up. the 0W will start dropping pressure(due to not operating the oil pump in the relief pressure region) first, while the 10W will still waste oil flow by relieving it directly into the pan, rather than it being used to lubricate all of the rotating and reciprocating parts.

[Rettax3]

Okay, but there is still an issue with higher bearing loads under heavy acceleration when the engine is still cold -most people don't bother warming-up their engines anymore before taking off and driving their cars. Thinner oils do not provide as much protection in this case. Thicker viscosity oils will also remain in the engine on the bearing surfaces slightly better than the thinner oils for re-starts within a short time-frame, adding a little more protection there too. Of course, the thinner oils circulate throughout the engine faster on 'dry starts' (when the engine has been sitting long enough for any substantial coating of oil to have flowed off of or out of critical engine components), getting to where it is needed more quickly. There are really pros and cons balancing each other out here, so there simply isn't one true best answer. But, the thinner oils (5Wxx) are usually 'EPA' suggested because of the reduced energy required to pump them through the engine and therefore theoretical improved fuel consumption over the lifespan of the engine (which does not take into account the additional "carbon footprint" of having to build a new engine after the original one is shelled-out because someone decided that water flows more easily than oil ). I tend to prefer the thicker oil-range as specified for the engine in reference to the temperature range I am driving in, unless the engine is rebuilt or near-new (I've never owned a new automobile engine, probably never will, certainly don't want to). There is a reason why the automotive engineers specify the thicker oils, just as there is a reason why the EPA specifies thinner oils -look at the agendas and decide for yourself which one more closely follows your own. I wouldn't even consider using a thinner-than-specified oil in an older used engine, but that is just me. Ford can keep the 5W20 in their junk, thanks. (Oops, I just got 'opinionated'.)

[Beretta1234567]

0W-30 would probably only be necissairy in the Arctic where the temps are way below -40' F.

But like he said above, the engine was designed for a specific weight oil, your best bet is to not go thinner unless the weather actually justifies it. Thinner oil just means greater wear factor in my opinion.

My problem with the EPA is that their recomended suggestions on things like this are only based on pollution control.
They don't care about the fact that putting thinner oil than spec will let the engine wear out sooner.
Although some people agree it gets there sooner if its thinner, but just think why itsthinner; chances are your coefficient of friction is also higher.

In my opinion the dry start time is so small in cars that it doesn't really justify thinner oil unless the weather has a ajor part to play; the risk of faster worn out parts is to great.

[Echoes71]

Just to give a quick update - it's been about 6 weeks since I put the 10W-30 in and the car has been running perfectly! Now here in Missouri we don't get Arctic winters, but it can get cold, so - depending on how this winter shapes up - probably in late November/early December I will go back to 5W-30.

And as was noted above - a lot of people today just start their car and zoom off - I let it warm up like one should. Usually I am looking for some music to listen to, depending on my mood that day, so that little bit of time gives the car the proper amount of warm-up time.

Anyway, thanks to all who have responded to this thread, it's been fun, informative and interesting reading!

[3X00-Modified]

I read Roberts link and it opened up my eyes to oil weights... so the purpose of running a 10w30 instead of 5w30 I honestly don't get anymore, it's the same at operating temp and would really only cause more damage at startup because it's thicker.

5w-30 or 0w30 for me all the way.

[RobertISaar]

Okay, but there is still an issue with higher bearing loads under heavy acceleration when the engine is still cold -most people don't bother warming-up their engines anymore before taking off and driving their cars. Thinner oils do not provide as much protection in this case.

so, you think a 0W-30 when cold will be thinner/less protective film of oil than 10W-30 when hot? the 0W-30 will be MUCH thicker at 100*F than a 10W-30 at 200*F.

I read Roberts link and it opened up my eyes to oil weights... so the purpose of running a 10w30 instead of 5w30 I honestly don't get anymore, it's the same at operating temp and would really only cause more damage at startup because it's thicker.

5w-30 or 0w30 for me all the way.

winrar, and stuff. old oil knowledge is why jiffy lube and the like still manage to sucker people into 3,000 mile oil changes when they could be going 5,000 or 7,500 or even 10,000 miles without causing harm to the engine.

an oil analysis of the same engine running otherwise identical(same brand/style) 10W-30 vs 0W-30 for equal amounts of time in equal conditions should show the 0W having less wear metals suspensded in the oil every time. oil is what keeps the engine from tearing itself apart, getting it to where it needs to be faster is never a bad idea.

[Asylum]

Very interesting stuff Robert!

But I have to admit I start having heart palpitations once the Quad gets past 3000 miles even on Mobile One.

I know, I know but It's a mind set I have developed over the years.

[Rettax3]

Okay, but there is still an issue with higher bearing loads under heavy acceleration when the engine is still cold -most people don't bother warming-up their engines anymore before taking off and driving their cars. Thinner oils do not provide as much protection in this case.

so, you think a 0W-30 when cold will be thinner/less protective film of oil than 10W-30 when hot? the 0W-30 will be MUCH thicker at 100*F than a 10W-30 at 200*F.

Where did you get that from my statement? No wait, I see it -sorry, that isn't what I meant at all. I was trying to say that 0W30 would not have the same protection as 10W30 at cold temperatures -yes it will get in place quicker (good), but it will not stay in place after engine shut-down as well as the thicker oils. Either way is imperfect -what we need is a pre-oiler (like some aircraft engines have -I actually trained with two people who had developed pre-oilers for a number of different aircraft engines that could be "STC'ed" or retrofit in place) that pumps oil into the engine before the parts start rotating and rubbing against each other. But anyway...

I see nothing wrong with 5W30, especially if operating the car in colder temperatures (where the oil will be thicker and flow slower until the engine is warm) or if the engine is newer (so the clearances between bearing surfaces are still tighter), but my experience has never shown a problem with 10W30 causing accelerated wear. As the oil cools down after engine shut-down, and it seeps off the internal components and back into the oil-pan, thicker oil will stay in place better for a while -if the car sits for a month between start-ups then it probably doesn't matter much anyway. I admit I haven't looked at your link yet, and I will. The engine designers specified a particular weight and grade of oil, and it will take several sources to disprove that validity for me. 0W30... Not for me, thanks. I just don't believe it has the viscosity at low temperatures to protect the engine properly. But I will look at the link you provided, and maybe it will show me something new to chew on. I just don't see that it will cause me to disbelieve generations of automotive engineers, published engine specifications, or decades of my own personal experience (although I have never used 0W anything, so I can't say definitively that it isn't as good or better). I'll let you know if it does though, and will say thank you for the info either way.

Asylum, I don't even think about oil changes until 5,000 miles, but safe is usually better than sorry, and Quads can be so finicky anyway, the worst you are doing is wasting a little bit of money... Nothing too wrong with that if it gives you peace-of-mind, IMO.

[3X00-Modified]

10w 30 looses it's 10w property once it's at operating temp so theoretically when you shut down the motor with 5w30 or 10w30 if they were both to operating temp they currently both have the same viscosity as 30 weight oil at that temperature.

And 0W 30 at cold temps is heavier than 5w30 at operating temp. As they stated ALL oil is too thick at startup but a 0w 5w and 10w 30 will ALL be the same viscosity once at operating temp so no matter which one you use it CAN'T be too thin.

I do 3k invervals on my legacy at least right now since I just built the motor... I may extend that this next change to 5 or 7... I will also check over my wife's for sealing and bump her to 5k. Her friend who lives with us I currently do 5k on her new Impreza since it's a NA motor and does't get stressed much.

And I change the oil every 3 months on the Beretta because I don't hit that mileage before I feel that it's sat around for too long.

We run 20w50 in the modified... we need to pre-heat the oil before starting it up as well as run the external dry sump pump to pre-oil everything as well... This is the only way to extend the life of these motors because it NEEDS the 50w viscosity at operating temp since that is near 350* so it's almost equivalent to a 30w at 200* BUT seeing it's a 20w cold we need to warm it up before starting because it's just WAY too thick.

[RobertISaar]

But I have to admit I start having heart palpitations once the Quad gets past 3000 miles even on Mobile One.

could always have an oil analysis done.... they're cheap enough these days. i want to say less than $20/shipped for most services?

I was trying to say that 0W30 would not have the same protection as 10W30 at cold temperatures -yes it will get in place quicker (good), but it will not stay in place after engine shut-down as well as the thicker oils.

that's the thing though..... with a 10W vs a 0W, the 10W builds up pressure so quickly that a significant portion of it never makes it through the engine until it warms significantly, it just gets bypassed directly back into the pan. the thinner you can get while cold, the more oil that will make it to where it needs to be and faster at that.

pressure is simply a measure of restriction to flow. there are very few parts in these(and most other) engines that actually need a certain amount of pressure to work correctly, the lifters are really the only ones that come to mind. in the newer 60V6s, the cam phaser also needs some kind of pressure to operate, but that is intentional. i believe they also run their oil pressure relief at 45PSI, instead of the 60PSI the "classic" 60V6 do.



Jon touched enough on the after shutdown events enough to where i don't feel the need to reword the same info.

there is 0W-50 oil out there though.... but it's still going to be quite a thick oil when cold, since 0W is different for every hot viscosity.

[Asylum]

Great idea!! Just sent an e-mail to Blackstone Labs for a free kit.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com

$25 when I send it in.

Be nice to know what shape this engine is actually in.

[Beretta1234567]

Thats awesome that they have oil analysis. I totally never realized this.

(But to simplify what I had earlier)
What I learned:
A good rule to follow is to never go lighter on the oil than recommendations.
You can always go heavier as the engine wears, however you can not go too thick too fast.
If the temperature is lower than the recommended oil weight, the cold weight spec can be lowered by about 5 for every so many degrees dropped.

If I remember correctly, there used to be a chart on the internet that showed (regardless of engine/car) the different oil weights compared to their operating temperatures and start up temperatures to the oil itself

like:

5w-20
5w-30
5w-40
10w-20
10w-30
10w-40

and it had temp ranges for cold and running that the oil had optimal lubrication in, and it showed other info too.

[1988GTU]

What ever you do, dont use this oil....
http://www.michigan.gov/mdard/0,4610,7- ... --,00.html