I finally made up my mind. M62 for my Beretta!

[Beretta1234567]

1988 Beretta GT
3.1L MPFI v6
5 SPD Stick

Stage 1 Centerforce clutch.
Stage 2 Motorvation Chip.
2 Bar MAP sensor.

Eaton M62 Supercharger.

The engine is stock, however I plan to modify it and make it more robust for boost eventually.
My initial goal is to install the supercharger and make sure everything functions with around 5 PSI boost.
I decided to go with a supercharger instead of a turbocharger because its easier for me to machine down metal, and I can't weld.

I found this guy and seeing photos of his car has inspired me to go through with supercharging my car:
http://www.angelfire.com/super/ghettoretta/m90/sc.htm

I have one question though, How would I go about setting up the oil feed. There looks to be 2 openings for oil and I'm not sure if it is bi-directional or if the oil has to travel only one way.

I'm slowly building up this car for racing.
what do you think?

[3X00-Modified]

If you think you are going to be able to SC your car PROPERLY without welding one part then you are in for a surprise. I think if you really want to go that route the better direction is a centrifugal SC not an M62

[heavywoody]

Not to mention there isn't an oil supply line needed for an M62 (assuming it's oiling is just like an M90 on a GTP)...

[bonecrrusher]

There is that guy that CNC'd a bunch of parts out of aluminum - not sure where his website/pictures/thread are...

[Beretta1234567]

Here are photos of the M62 and the top of the lower intake of the 3800 v6 that the M62 came off of.

[Beretta1234567]

One more photo:

In this photo from left to right on the supercharger:
1) EGR input hole.
2) Throttle body cooling lines both next to each other. two holes about 1-2 inches apart vertical.
3) Pressure relief flapper controlled by vacuum thing.
4) 2 holes, I am not sure what for, cooling? Not sure what they are for, about 5 inches apart vertical.
5) The big hole where the forced air enters the engine lower intake.
6) bottom right of the unit in the photo, looks like another possible coolant opening?

What do you think?

[Rettax3]

I have two of those bad-boys sitting in storage, I'm not sure what I'm going to do with them yet... Are you planning on machining-down the 90-degree 3800 lower intake to fit into the 60-degree 3.1? I have a really hard time believing that will be doable, I don't think the ports will line up at all... Or are you planning on mounting the M62 on top of the 3.1 upper intake plenum? That intake is almost flat anyway, if you can machine it down a little, the M62 would fit pretty well, I think. I say go for it. I've looked at doing a similar setup on my '86 Fiero GT, which has a 3X00 in it right now (despite that I'm not a big fan of those engines due to the LIMG issue, but it will get a Dorman steel-gasket upgrade when I swap it over to five-speed once I have time to work on the car. Alternatively, I have a 4.6 Northstar that I may drop in there instead, especially if I find someone interested in buying the 3X00 from me in the future). You will likely lose the power-steering pump, at least from the stock location (not a big deal on my Fiero, since those cars didn't have P/S in '86). I would say that you could plug the 3.1's TB opening off to make everything cleaner under the hood. You might have to find a different throttle-cable though, I had to swap mine out on my M90 (Series 2) on my GTU. This will NOT fit under your hood though, and sitting transverse, it is too wide to put a standard cowl or anything like that on it (again, not really a problem for my mid-engined Fiero -the stock spoiler blocks half of the rear-view anyway ).

What are you planning on doing for the tune? Right now, I would eat Ramen noodles for a week if I could get someone to sell me a DHP for a decent price, but if you are still running the ECM from the '88, you would need a chip instead. Have you considered fabricating some sensor-mounts and using a 3800 PCM for this? The 3800 Series 1 is a MAF-controlled engine, so it should work pretty cleanly without an absolute need for a tune to make it reliably driveable, although a tune will certainly get you more bang-for-the-buck. Just a thought...

As for some of those mystery holes, the M62 has the PCV valve mounted inside it, so the system breathes up through a couple of those holes. I would ditch the TB coolant-lines altogether -they are rarely helpful. And front-most port (closest to the TB) is for the EGR -blocking that off is my recommendation.

Good luck, keep us posted.

[Slinky]

I am a bit confused here I thought the M62 was the supercharger that mounted in front of the engine not the one that mounted on top of the engine do a quick Google images search and you will see what I'm talking about, yeah the m62 I'm thinking of They only made 20 of them and they were for a 3400 engine not the 3800,
I could be wrong but the ones pictured in the photos above is and m90 supercharger
In my opinion an m62 would be much better because his design for the 3400, but it's rarity and it's reliability puts it in a price range around $2000-$3000, I thought about it instead of my RSM kit but there is no room to mount and intercooler or aftercooler piping

[Beretta1234567]

I have two of those bad-boys sitting in storage, I'm not sure what I'm going to do with them yet... Are you planning on machining-down the 90-degree 3800 lower intake to fit into the 60-degree 3.1? I have a really hard time believing that will be doable, I don't think the ports will line up at all... Or are you planning on mounting the M62 on top of the 3.1 upper intake plenum? That intake is almost flat anyway, if you can machine it down a little, the M62 would fit pretty well, I think. I say go for it. I've looked at doing a similar setup on my '86 Fiero GT, which has a 3X00 in it right now (despite that I'm not a big fan of those engines due to the LIMG issue, but it will get a Dorman steel-gasket upgrade when I swap it over to five-speed once I have time to work on the car. Alternatively, I have a 4.6 Northstar that I may drop in there instead, especially if I find someone interested in buying the 3X00 from me in the future). You will likely lose the power-steering pump, at least from the stock location (not a big deal on my Fiero, since those cars didn't have P/S in '86). I would say that you could plug the 3.1's TB opening off to make everything cleaner under the hood. You might have to find a different throttle-cable though, I had to swap mine out on my M90 (Series 2) on my GTU. This will NOT fit under your hood though, and sitting transverse, it is too wide to put a standard cowl or anything like that on it (again, not really a problem for my mid-engined Fiero -the stock spoiler blocks half of the rear-view anyway ).

What are you planning on doing for the tune? Right now, I would eat Ramen noodles for a week if I could get someone to sell me a DHP for a decent price, but if you are still running the ECM from the '88, you would need a chip instead. Have you considered fabricating some sensor-mounts and using a 3800 PCM for this? The 3800 Series 1 is a MAF-controlled engine, so it should work pretty cleanly without an absolute need for a tune to make it reliably driveable, although a tune will certainly get you more bang-for-the-buck. Just a thought...

As for some of those mystery holes, the M62 has the PCV valve mounted inside it, so the system breathes up through a couple of those holes. I would ditch the TB coolant-lines altogether -they are rarely helpful. And front-most port (closest to the TB) is for the EGR -blocking that off is my recommendation.

Good luck, keep us posted.

I was planning on machining down the upper intake plenum on the 3.1L MPFI to be flat.
Then I was going to take a 3/4 inch thick adapter plate of aluminum and machine all the openings into it. then mount it on top of the engine, then the supercharger on top of that.
I was planning on mounting 1 idler pulley's on the adapter plate so I can keep the belt warped mostly the way around my alternator and SC.
With where the supercharger itself is going to be mounted I think enough of the belt is on the power steering pump so it shouldn't be slipping.

I already bought a stage 2 EPROM that supports both standard negative pressure and positive boost pressure.
The only problem is the chip wants the EGR.

I took the 2 MAP sensors from the 3800 engine.

I plan to get small hoses and connect up the 3.1L's stock manifold hoses to the supercharge so that they still operate the vapor canister and fuel pressure regulator. I'll connect the MAP sensor to the boost side so it reads positive boost. Then I'll connect the brake booster and PCV valve before the supercharger on the negative side so they still function correctly.
The PCV valve
Should be straight forward.

I was thinking of blocking off the EGR, but my ECM chip wants it.

I'm going to get some different pulley's as well to set the boost. where I want it.

I have an old Beretta engine hood thats seen better days, I was planning on cutting out an opening for anything that sticks up to far.
After I get it all functioning correctly, I'll make a cover that looks nice and clean it all up and paint it.

EDIT:
Unless you think its easier to make the 3800 v6 lower intake work on my 3.1L engine?
I don't think it will fit anyways. But now I'm curious, Maybe I should go back to the junk yard and get it...lol

I am a bit confused here I thought the M62 was the supercharger that mounted in front of the engine not the one that mounted on top of the engine do a quick Google images search and you will see what I'm talking about, yeah the m62 I'm thinking of They only made 20 of them and they were for a 3400 engine not the 3800,
I could be wrong but the ones pictured in the photos above is and m90 supercharger
In my opinion an m62 would be much better because his design for the 3400, but it's rarity and it's reliability puts it in a price range around $2000-$3000, I thought about it instead of my RSM kit but there is no room to mount and intercooler or aftercooler piping

Oh, I was following this link:
http://victorylibrary.com/supercharger/ ... n-data.htm

I look at the chart, and its a Pontiac; Bonneville; 1994-1995; 3.8L v6; M62; Gen III; And I click the link and it looks like mine.
http://victorylibrary.com/graphics/Eato ... en-3-1.jpg


EDIT:

Specs:
3800 Supercharged Compression Ratio 8.5:1
Crank Pulley: 7 Inch.

3.1L Non-Supercharged Compression Ratio 8.9:1
Crank Pulley: 6.1 Inch.

Supercharger:
Pulley: 3.8 Inch.

Its so close. My crank pulley is 1 inch smaller in diameter and my engine is 0.4 higher on the compression ratio.
Do you think it should handle it?

I know GM made a 3.1L Turbo engine. Does anyone know if GM used stronger internals or if they simply added a turbo and kept the 3.1L engine internals the same across all cars?

[Rettax3]

Specs:
3800 Supercharged Compression Ratio 8.5:1
Crank Pulley: 7 Inch.

3.1L Non-Supercharged Compression Ratio 8.9:1
Crank Pulley: 6.1 Inch.

Supercharger:
Pulley: 3.8 Inch.

Its so close. My crank pulley is 1 inch smaller in diameter and my engine is 0.4 higher on the compression ratio.
Do you think it should handle it?

I know GM made a 3.1L Turbo engine. Does anyone know if GM used stronger internals or if they simply added a turbo and kept the 3.1L engine internals the same across all cars?

Yeah, just go with your original plan for mounting, I'm surprised you have room to keep the P/S pump, but if you do, then that works...

With the slightly smaller crank pulley AND the smaller displacement, the SC will provide more air than the engine can consume at any given RPM/throttle setting, but that bypass valve (butterfly in the SC) is actuated by a vacuum/pressure differential solenoid, and if that is hooked up correctly, it should keep the manifold pressure where it is supposed to be (according to what the M62 is made and calibrated for). It may be increased a little, but if you need to, you can look for a larger SC pulley to slow it down and reduce the manifold pressure (by the way, remember to install a giant warning light in your car to alert you to a "Danger To Manifold" under full boost...

The turbo 3.1 you are referring to is the ASC McLaren LG5. The block has a higher nickle content, but the compression and the internals are the same as any ol' LH0 3.1 MPFI. A little boost won't hurt your engine, especially if the ECM is tuned right. I would truly love to get more info from you on the chip you are using...

Block the EGR. I put a coin in between the manifold and the EGR on my 3.1 Yellow Indy, and it doesn't even throw a code. The ECM is stock on that car, so of course the 'tune' 'wants' an active EGR valve, but I have an air filter on my engine to keep dirty crap out of my engine, so 'EGgeR' has been fired...

Slinky, the M90 was used on the 3800 Series II and III, it is a much, much bigger SuperCharger than the M62. It had different variations also used on other engines, like Ford's Thunderbird SuperCoupe's 3.8. It was also used on that 'Ghettoretta', or whatever it was called, where it is sticking out of the hood. The M62 that is being talked about here is from a Series I L67 3800, and mounts on top of the engine. But yes, you are right, the one that is pictured here is an M90 -I didn't look that closely, but I should have caught it too. What SC do you have in your car?

[Slinky]

Slinky, the M90 was used on the 3800 Series II and III, it is a much, much bigger SuperCharger than the M62. It had different variations also used on other engines, like Ford's Thunderbird SuperCoupe's 3.8. It was also used on that 'Ghettoretta', or whatever it was called, where it is sticking out of the hood. The M62 that is being talked about here is from a Series I L67 3800, and mounts on top of the engine. But yes, you are right, the one that is pictured here is an M90 -I didn't look that closely, but I should have caught it too. What SC do you have in your car?

A redesigned/modified RSM centrifugal set up with a v9-g, a 10psi pulley, comptech aftercooler and oversized heat exchanger

[NastyEllEssWon]

if youre gonna do it. do it right. only pic i still have of norms beretta before it was stolen.

[Beretta1234567]

Nice photo.

Yah, I don't have that style Supercharger. I was considering it at some point, but I found it easier to use one like I bought.

I wasn't planning on using much boost for now. I simply want to make it function with about 5-10 PSI.
I was considering trying a 1 inch larger pulley on the supercharger to start off with.

When you say "the one pictured here is an M90" are you referring to the one in the link I posted, or the photo's I uploaded?
The one in the link on someone else's Beretta is an M90. According to the online chart and the car I got it from, mine is an M62.

Yah, I'd like to remove the EGR, But I'm not sure yet.

As far as the Bypass valve, I've decided not to use it. I'm building the car for performance so gas mileage is an understood loss.
However I do plan to install a pressure gauge like some people do with turbochargers, Mostly because I want to make sure it doesn't go to high.

[Rettax3]

The pictures you provided are an M90 -this is the same SC I have on my GTU's L36/L67 hybrid 3800 Series II. They were used from ~'96 or '97 up. The M62 was used on the previous 3800s, the Series I -it looks totally different, and is a lot smaller.

THIS is a 3800 M62...
Photo courtesy of Google Images.

M62.jpg (8.73 KiB) Viewed 7214 times

Now, when you say you won't be using the bypass valve, please tell me you aren't talking about disconnecting the butterfly-valve built into the SC... If you disable that, you can seriously damage your supercharger, and almost certainly WILL damage your engine... It keeps the manifold pressure from spiking during RPM changes. It isn't quite the same as a turbo's bypass valve (or blow-off valve for non-MAF units), as most turbos are placed upstream of the throttle-body (something I've been thinking of changing on one of my next turbo projects ), and it is also not exactly the same as a turbo's waste-gate, but it is more similar to that. Without this bypass valve functioning, well...

[Slinky]

This is the M62 supercharger I was talking about very popular on the grand am forums