The truth once and for all

[Jimz90indy]

I just want to post so I can put my sig pic below Aarons.  Beretta banners ROCK!
Eh, perhaps this could have all been avoided if people that weren't directly involved kept their comments to themselves when Ribz posted last night in the General Section.
What was a post about him giving his girlfriend a ring turned into open season over this tranny swap.
I don't see the connection.

[Ribz80]

Quote (holstbnet @ Dec. 23 2004,18:02)Bottom line is this.. there are two sides to every story at LEAST... and none of us are going to ever know what really happened just by reading your posts, and Erich and Stephs posts. I've heard Geoffs side of it too...

Erich is a real character... I've known my fair share of people like this. You are either going to really like Erich or really hate him I guess, because it takes a certain personality to get along with him. He says whatever he feels and doesn't give a crap about what other people think. That pisses some people off. If you can deal with it though, he can be a very good friend. Everybody talks about Erich and Steph, the ripoff artists.. total a$$holes these people... they take your money and run. They never do anything to help anyone. I've had my fights with Erich too -- bad ones.

BUT> Somewhere along the way I realized that they really are good people, just misunderstood. I don't see Erich and Steph too much, especially now that I moved farther away. We aren't butt buddies or anything. When I do hang out with them, they are the best friends you could ask for.
>These two came over to my house for a housewarming party and since they heard I had needed a dehumidifier for my basement badly, went and bought me a really nice one! Along with several other things they dropped off.
>They knew I needed a set of struts for my 96 base... They found brand new ones at the junkyard and bought em for me. GAVE them to me.
>My fiance and I go out to eat with them and they've paid countless times, didn't let me pay.
>My moms 01 Alero 3400 sprung an intake gasket leak.. Erich and Steph call me up and say "Need some extra hands? We'll come over and help!" It was cold out and its not a hard job but you can get it done a hell of a lot quicker with some extra hands... they came over and we knocked the job out in two hours or so. When it was done they jumped in their car and took off, barely gave me a chance to say thanks.

These are only a couple of instances where Erich/Steph have helped me out. I feel like -I- am the one taking advantage of them half the time.
But oh boy! Steph and Erich.. what a bunch of A$$HOLES.. ban them from the board!

Now, even putting that whole thing aside, my problem with you is that I've seen your kind before. I know plenty of guys like you. You don't know how to work on cars very good, you aren't INEPT, but cmon, lets be honest here. Yet, even though you're no mechanic, you want to be a CAR GUY. You race your automatic Beretta around with a big ol' tach... then something breaks-- and its your FRIENDS to the rescue. I've been this friend many times, I know how this goes. I've spent many a night in someones 30 degree garage or a 7-11 parking lot changing an alternator or replacing a CV shaft for a buddy. A buddy who doesn't call me again for months until he needs a favor again.

The real reason I sympathize with Erich and Steph is I can totally picture that whole ordeal. You, the tightwad who wants to pay them to do the swap, but expects everything to go perfectly and wants the whole thing to be DIRT CHEAP. I can totally picture how frustrating it would be in that situation, working on your car in some cold Detroit parking garage, bad luck on top of bad luck, wrong parts, tightwad owner who paces back and forth nervously, wondering whats going on and why isn't his car done yet? After all, you've provided an ample budget for the swap and the greatest of working conditions, right?

I guess I'll say this though. I think I'm a very good person to my friends, and have bent over backwards for people and gotten continually used and abused. It's not often that you will find people who will do things for you in return. Value those friends. I will say this about Geoff Morrow. He's one of those friends. I know Erich and Geoff don't get along, but they are both good people to me. I was there when Geoff had to get up at 6am to drive all the way to Detroit with a tow truck to help your sorry a$$. I know he did a LOT of work on your car. That's because he's a good guy. Geoff picked up an exhaust system I bought over in Michigan and drove it over to Chicago for me, during a short trip he was on. I've been very fortunate to meet several people on BerettaNet over these years who really do have a good heart and will help out others at the drop of a hat. I hope you realize this.

Ok I'm done for now.
Some things you said are true, and a lot of it is not.  You basically get used by your freinds and are generalizing and making me one of them.  

I talk to the people like Geoff, Scott etc regularly and know what is going on in their lives.  We hang out whenever possible.   My ex and I drove hours to hang out with Geoff and Mara and cars were not allowed to be discussed.  Whem I had my family fall apart geoff was one of the first people who knew.   I am in the know when he goes on an interview, how is finals are, how his relationships are etc.  Dont even pretend you know me or make assumptions, you come across as well, lets get to that.

Its my turn to sum you up.   You are big talker on a car board.  You have a wealth of knowledge in a very narrow focus.  You talk down to most since to be honest most on this board are "kids" while you are an old man at what, 26?  You say disrespectful things that you would not have the courage to say in person.   I have met you in person, you were a quiet soft spoken, fairly likeable person.   You get much bigger and braver online...a pet peeve of mine.  

I am a car guy in the sense of having general knowledge and passion for cars.   I have made it my choice of study and have made sacrifices to do so.  I am NOT a car mechanic or do I pretend to be.  I wont do my own engine swaps.  I do small things like oil changes and alternators or interior work when I can.   The rest of the time I do what most americans do and pay a trusted mechanic, I dont call one of my Bnet freinds.  


I am sure Erich is your buddy, but simply they and even you often are two faced.   The first time I went to Chicago I met his mom.   They proceeded to bash you, including his Mother and reffered to you as a "weasel".   I dont care if someone gets me a nice house warming gift, I would find that pretty much a slap in the face.

I could care less of your problem with me...I have problems with you.   You make personal attacks wrapped around your supposed knowledge of who I am.   You dont know me and I dont know you.   I only know what you have done or said  in the past and well, you have only shown to be two faced and say one thing online or behind someones back.   You may know how to do an engine swap in a Beretta while I would pace and be nervous, but in the end I am happy with what I know and content.   I dont envy you in anyway.   Get over yourself.

[Ribz80]

Quote (Stencil @ Dec. 23 2004,18:05)Welp, that's quite a read!  I guess I'll add my 2 cents:

Erich and Steph:

I think you made a very poor business call with this one.  If Steph knew "nothing about this swap", she should not have been talking with Ribz about it.  If this swap wasn't something you'd done before, driving out of state to attempt it on a Sunday (when most yards and stores are closed), when there is a deadline to finish it is a VERY bad idea.  It also appears to me that you didn't research the swap completely before you agreed to do it (the motor mount issue with it breaking axles)  You guys of ALL people should know how the "simple" little jobs can turn into an all-dayer.  I think you made a mistake letting Ribz supply any of the parts and that you should have insisted on providing the essental items to your swap (the struts wasn't a biggie - worst case you put the old ones back in).  You also didn't get any terms in writing (i.e. - who is providing what and who is responsible if something doesn't work).

It was a case were you thought you could do something, every possible thing went wrong, and you had no backup plan.  It was a mistake, it happens, and I think that's all that needs to be said.


Ribz:

 I think you made a mistake as well by not getting everything in writing as well (and AIM's don't count - I'm talking a firm "we're doing and providing this" e-mail).  I think you should have planned on it taking more time then you'd thought, and had some sort of backup plan as well.  Also, I don't think you understand that just because Erich pays one thing for a tranny, doesn't mean you pay the same amount.  And just because he gets some part for free, doesn't mean it doesn't have value and that he can't charge you for it.  I mark up my parts as well, becuase it takes my time to locate and remove them.  Erich is just trying to make money, as we all are - I don't see how he was trying to "screw" you by asking the same amount for the tranny.  Had you not known what he paid, you wouldn't have had a problem.  Also, being mad at Erich for "having problems getting the tranny in" is NOT fair at all.  Sometimes, things just go wrong - you can do something 100 times and the 101st time it'll take you 5 times as long as it did the last 100 times.  There's a very VERY big difference between "not knowing what your doing" and "things not going right"


I think things went as worse as they possibley could for both sides.  Both sides were inexperianced and it showed.  Your lucky now adays if something goes like it's supposed to, so always plan on it not - especailly if it's out of state and/or time critical (Ask Jim Metz about the problems we had with his swap!  Certianly didn't go like I thought it would, but we got it fixed and got him home on time!)

I think we can prolly put an end to this "He said, She said" and just agree that it was bad times for all
I think we will end it with Aarons reply.   See he actually looked at it from both sides.  I tried to admitt some responsibilty.  Little by little people who really have nothing to do with it will just put in their two cents.  IN the end if I had it to do all over again I would still do a 5spd swap.   If I went with Steph and Cack I would have done things a bit better and more organized.   But still I have seen them take no responsibilty.  But I have my car, its a 5spd and I love it.  IN the end I thank Geoff, Scott, Chazz, and the people on the phone like Aaron, Cliff, JC etc that helped.  I am going to close it since Cack got in his licks but will always see it his way.   I see it mine.   But atleast this here and out in the open instead of whispered around.

[Ribz80]

Quote (Jimz90indy @ Dec. 23 2004,18:08)I just want to post so I can put my sig pic below Aarons.  Beretta banners ROCK!
Eh, perhaps this could have all been avoided if people that weren't directly involved kept their comments to themselves when Ribz posted last night in the General Section.
What was a post about him giving his girlfriend a ring turned into open season over this tranny swap.
I don't see the connection.
Thats the whole point of this thread here.   I made a post, a celebration and a funny story.  Then small people like Holst that need a hobby make comments.   So here it is out in the open.  I wouldnt tolerate a tenth of some things said in person, so I only let so much go on and on with this venue.

[Jimz90indy]

Quote (spacecadetz26 @ Dec. 23 2004,15:53)The only thing I am mad about is the unsatisfactory job I did on your car because of the surroundings and lack of parts. ÂÂÂ
I am not taking sides, but this shows a hint of taking responsibility. So atleast one of them was able to shed some of that in their post.

[spacecadetz26]

Quote (Ribz80 @ Dec. 23 2004,16:22)The only reason you needed a hotel room in Kzoo was because the tranny you were supplying went south last minute.  You needed to get the tranny from Geoff in Kzoo.  If you wanted money for the hotel you are a big girl, add it to the bill or DISCUSS it with me.  You dont get to whine about it after the fact. ÂÂÂ

I went to Chicago from Detroit to get to your place, took 3 hours....lets not make you sound like the victim here again.  It took longer because of a detour to get a tranny LAST minute.


I was more interested in a shift knob then getting my car running?  That makes no sense.  You knew I needed the car to RUN in order to get it home for spring break.  The knob and pedals are details and i was able to put them on myself, no rocket science

Your arguement for the axles is purely false, I have the convos saved.  W41 axles were NEVER mentioned.  I was going to get them myself, you are right.  But I didnt have a car and relied on other people.  At a certain point I could not get them and I have the IM where you said OK AND THAT YOU HAD SOME to bring. ÂÂÂ

We had all parts worked out.  Price was only an issue on things like a flywheel which you might as well buy.  Every part was covered in our conversations.  If it was something I could not get you would say you had them on hand or would get them before arriving.  I would not have let you come if not every part we needed was sorted though an agreement that it would be brought by you.

You also seem to be making up the figure 700, since eevn in our first talks we were at 800+.  The shift cable was too stiff ask Geoff and Chazz.  I had plenty of money to do this swap right.  I am not here to short change people.  Its how you went about things.  You complained about money a week after you left.  No agreements were made about hotels or gas...you griped way after the fact.  If you needed money for anything like that just be up front about it.  INstead I felt you were padding the bill with things like the tranny being more and things like that.  It was how you went about things that made me not want to give you more money.  Thats the thing I wasnt nickel and diming or trying to buy rims.  It was about how you went about wanting that extra money. ÂÂÂ
I had no intentions of so called "padding the bill" the bill was emailed to you before we were going to work on it the second time. By this time I had done the research an realized the rear mount was needed, which I had retrieved.

I did not talk to you about "adding" the hotel and gas to the bill because the price of the transmission would have covered it, . But since you only wanted to pay $65 for the transmission that would not have even covered what we had paid for it and then refused to pay for other things like fluid and bolts. I got fed up and did not want to labor on your car anymore. It was extremely rude for you to "assume" things and I do not wish to deal with you anymore. I was being a good friend on my end until I realized what you were trying to do. I had set prices on everything and would have pulled through on my end but you are too much of a cheap ####### to deal with. You can clearly see the bill which erich posted. Also I do not recall where I agreed to charge you cost on the tranny.

[ErichZ26]

From a business call yes i agree it was poor.   We generally like to tabulate costs and options prior to a job like this.   This particular job was unique in that it was overall a repair.   There were time constraints and generally, the options were in no ones favor.     I have dealt with busienss transactions in computer and in automotive which require job estimate, time, costs and sometimes it has taken more.   I tend to eat the time in many cases unless it was not my fault.   Stephanie is a trained mechanic and generally has her procedure for doing work.

This was also a do or die situation for him, we rationalize that the swap should not have been done, and a used automatic transmission should have been supplied and installed in a different surrounding.    Everyone threw the dice and not a person here won.   I made no gains from this transaction.  Not only this by Stephanie and my reputation became at stake.   Did I like leaving this project incomplete, NOT AT ALL.   Until this we have had a good record of completing the jobs but this one was just wrong.   We put ourselves on the line for someone that would not work with us.   Often we hope that the other person will step up and return the favor.

There are some transactions, and I am sure you are in this boat Aaron, where it is casual, and you accept cash on the table with no written promise or warrantee, etc.  This was an example where you need to contract the work or it will bite you.    Do I believe Jamie tried to get things his way....very much and prior transactions should have thrown a flag.  

We have done Jamie favors in the past, and have done a business transaction in the past.  I believe that some of his used parts complaints are not justified and are in retaliation for my comments on the condition of the tires we purchased month prior to this.    The part thing is touchy and why most shops do not allow a person to bring in their own parts.    

I do not believe this particular post will have as much business mpact as Jamie might think.   We typically take on obscure automotive projects that the average mechanic will not touch.  Some may choose not to deal with us, if it scares off people who have similar characteristics to Jamie that is fine.    We do take a lot of pride in our work, and it is more than about money or making friends.

[Ribz80]

Quote (Jimz90indy @ Dec. 23 2004,18:46)Quote (spacecadetz26 @ Dec. 23 2004,15:53)The only thing I am mad about is the unsatisfactory job I did on your car because of the surroundings and lack of parts. ÂÂÂ
I am not taking sides, but this shows a hint of taking responsibility. So atleast one of them was able to shed some of that in their post.
Wow, Jim you are right.   If that was meant the way you say then you are right.   I read it the wrong way perhaps.

[spacecadetz26]

brake upgrade  (Rotors/Pads/Calipers/knuckles/knuckle bolts &nuts) $130
Wheel Bearings $40
flywheel bolts  $20 (6)
flywheel $25
Synchromesh Trans Fluid  $22 (3)
5spd Trans $250
Shift plate  $20
Shifter $15
Shift cables $40
Pedals $30

Other Misc stuff
Brake Fluid  $3.30
Engine Degreaser $2.30
2 solderless connectors $2.30
Threadlock  $6.00
Antisieze  $6.30


Here it is again, and also if your car later needed parts like a mount, or shifter cable or axle. I would not have charged you for these parts. You also forgot about the used clutch hydraulics, that was my fault too.

[ErichZ26]

Jamie, you were looking for an arguement tonight.  I was not expectiing it now, but since you brought it up.

I also feel this transmission swap was 3rd strike with me.  My butt is still burning, its all about Jamie and what we can do for him.

[ErichZ26]

How about the stepping drill he bought so i could drill the holes in his firewall, then giving it back to me that night saying he did not need it.  Later taking it off the bill.  

Its all about Jameson Neuman

[Ribz80]

Quote (spacecadetz26 @ Dec. 23 2004,18:49)Quote (Ribz80 @ Dec. 23 2004,16:22)The only reason you needed a hotel room in Kzoo was because the tranny you were supplying went south last minute.  You needed to get the tranny from Geoff in Kzoo.  If you wanted money for the hotel you are a big girl, add it to the bill or DISCUSS it with me.  You dont get to whine about it after the fact. ÂÂÂ

I went to Chicago from Detroit to get to your place, took 3 hours....lets not make you sound like the victim here again.  It took longer because of a detour to get a tranny LAST minute.


I was more interested in a shift knob then getting my car running?  That makes no sense.  You knew I needed the car to RUN in order to get it home for spring break.  The knob and pedals are details and i was able to put them on myself, no rocket science

Your arguement for the axles is purely false, I have the convos saved.  W41 axles were NEVER mentioned.  I was going to get them myself, you are right.  But I didnt have a car and relied on other people.  At a certain point I could not get them and I have the IM where you said OK AND THAT YOU HAD SOME to bring. ÂÂÂ

We had all parts worked out.  Price was only an issue on things like a flywheel which you might as well buy.  Every part was covered in our conversations.  If it was something I could not get you would say you had them on hand or would get them before arriving.  I would not have let you come if not every part we needed was sorted though an agreement that it would be brought by you.

You also seem to be making up the figure 700, since eevn in our first talks we were at 800+.  The shift cable was too stiff ask Geoff and Chazz.  I had plenty of money to do this swap right.  I am not here to short change people.  Its how you went about things.  You complained about money a week after you left.  No agreements were made about hotels or gas...you griped way after the fact.  If you needed money for anything like that just be up front about it.  INstead I felt you were padding the bill with things like the tranny being more and things like that.  It was how you went about things that made me not want to give you more money.  Thats the thing I wasnt nickel and diming or trying to buy rims.  It was about how you went about wanting that extra money. ÂÂÂ
I had no intentions of so called "padding the bill" the bill was emailed to you before we were going to work on it the second time. By this time I had done the research an realized the rear mount was needed, which I had retrieved.

I did not talk to you about "adding" the hotel and gas to the bill because the price of the transmission would have covered it, . But since you only wanted to pay $65 for the transmission that would not have even covered what we had paid for it and then refused to pay for other things like fluid and bolts. I got fed up and did not want to labor on your car anymore. It was extremely rude for you to "assume" things and I do not wish to deal with you anymore. I was being a good friend on my end until I realized what you were trying to do. I had set prices on everything and would have pulled through on my end but you are too much of a cheap ####### to deal with. You can clearly see the bill which erich posted. Also I do not recall where I agreed to charge you cost on the tranny.
You just admitted my problem.   You just said the extra money for the tranny would have covered your needs.  Thats my PROBLEM.  You didnt say that, you just assumed it whihc made it like padding the bill to me.   It wasnt up front.  Jamie we paid less for the tranny, but we need to stick to the 250 originally to cover smoe of our costs.....BOOM done and we wouldnt be here.  

I wasnt too cheap to deal with.   This was a huge endeavor.   I have all your estimates and they never really went about 850-900.  I saved all the convos and quotes and stuck to it.   We didnt have an issue till you sent me the bill with 250 for the tranny.   If you would have said tranny at 100+150 for room and gas then we wouldnt be here......it still equals 250 but one is up front and honest, and your way was AFTER the fact.  This was a big endeavor.   You think I was cheap, how many people would have even dared come up with anywhere close to 1000 for something like that?   With a project like this I had to keep some costs down because the list kept going and can get out of hand.   It wasnt an easy task to get something like this done.

[ErichZ26]

bad shift cable, bad shift plate, faulty flywheel, and  2 bad used bearings!!!  

just a bunch a crap!

[Ribz80]

Quote (spacecadetz26 @ Dec. 23 2004,18:53)brake upgrade  (Rotors/Pads/Calipers/knuckles/knuckle bolts &nuts) $130
Wheel Bearings $40
flywheel bolts  $20 (6)
flywheel $25
Synchromesh Trans Fluid  $22 (3)
5spd Trans $250
Shift plate  $20
Shifter $15
Shift cables $40
Pedals $30

Other Misc stuff
Brake Fluid  $3.30
Engine Degreaser $2.30
2 solderless connectors $2.30
Threadlock  $6.00
Antisieze  $6.30


Here it is again, and also if your car later needed parts like a mount, or shifter cable or axle. I would not have charged you for these parts. You also forgot about the used clutch hydraulics, that was my fault too.
At the point where we found things like the cable couldnt be used we hadnt been in contact for months.  It was best that we part ways and I was fine with you getting 450.

[Ribz80]

Quote (ErichZ26 @ Dec. 23 2004,18:58)How about the stepping drill he bought so i could drill the holes in his firewall, then giving it back to me that night saying he did not need it.  Later taking it off the bill. ÂÂÂ

Its all about Jameson Neuman
All you give is BS.   I told yo to take it.   I have no use for it.  I NEVER took it off the drill you dork.   It was haphazardly put in my car with the rest of things since we were rushed.   It was never taken off by me.  i still have it and have no use for it and will be willing to send it to you my cost.