95 Beretta 6cyl- intermit rough idle/run/stall

[Ctimbers]

Hi and thanks..

I hope to get to check the coils and icm tomorrow or day after..

Don't know if its related, but the service engine light is coming on more often, and still clears after it's off.. still cant get the codes under the dash with paperclip for some reason, not even the ok code, don't know why.. but when i took the car for a ride today, i did notice that i could smell some of that exhaust, more specifically it smelled like carbon, coming from the vents when I had them on. wasn't overpowering, i had the windows open too anyway, but was noticeable... haven't had that before that i've noticed.. still wonder if the new EGR is bad.. can try to have them replace with a different one..

don't know if that means anything yet.. any ideas?

Thanks very much..

[Money pit Beretta]

Sometimes you can reuse EGR gaskets, most of the time if you take the EGR off you need to put a new gasket on. The top one that is, there is one on the bottom also. Did you get the port cleaned out?
Some auto parts stores will scan your car for free(ask for the scaner not the code reader), if they have a good one it will show history codes.

[Ctimbers]

ok.. i'm gonna try to be patient and do this one step at a time so i don't end up just throwing parts i can't afford at this thing..

i pulled the wires off the ignition coils one at a time while the car was running..

for 5 of them, i heard lots of clicking, but it kept running..

for the 6th wire, i saw long white sparks like mini lightning bolts from the top of the metal post where i just pulled the wire off of going straight to the high point of the middle of the plastic cap, heard the same clicking/popping, and it stopped running..
went to check the plug, but that one is on the back of the engine and i don't have the right tools to reach..

does that indicate anything? or move on to the next step? which would be getting wires/plugs changed, or getting icm tested, or something else please?

also, the pcv valve came in, need to pick up.. can you direct me where it is in those pics please? supposedly it's easy but haven't got it yet, so not sure what it looks like..

Thanks very much..


[EDIT: just got the service engine codes: light came on and got them while it was running and the light stayed on long enough: 2 codes: 017 - Ignition control camshaft sensor problem (this was in History, not listed current)... also 077 - EGR Selenoid #3 malfunction (this code was in there twice in History and Current - does this mean the new EGR is bad, or is that something else please?)

Thanks...

[Ctimbers]

one additional question.. is it worth it to keep going with this?

here's the dilemma: can't afford a new car, barely can afford more parts, fixed income, no other means of transportation and no help from anyone.. biggest issue with this car: the engine also makes a ticking noise which for the most part disappeared over the summer but is slowly coming back already.. been told that it's the valve lifters and engine will probably die when it gets cold enough again this winter, if it even lasts that long... it was pretty loud in the spring when it first happened... been using 20/50 over the summer as recommended, but will need to switch soon..

is it worth all this, any chance to save it? suggestions please?

thanks..

[Money pit Beretta]

The PCV is on the far right of the valve cover(You know where the oil fill cap is, the other thing sticking out is the PCV). If the camshaft sensor was replaced it sounds like the code was not cleared(if it was never changed the code is right). Was the EGR new? You can unplug the battery for a little while and reset the computer. Then you can see if the codes come back. If you hear that clicking with the wires on another coil is bad. That would show that the ICM is bad. As for the lifter they do go bad. You can save this car but it will take some work. If you can swing all these repairs the car could run for many more years. As you said... one thing at a time. You may be able to save some money by getting some coils at the junk yard(the ICM and the EGR must be new).

[Ctimbers]

ok.. got the pcv, thank you..

the camshaft sensor i don't know that it was replaced.. not even sure where it is.. help on that please?

the EGR was new, will be taking it back for exchange tomorrow, ever since i put it in been makin a little noise even with the car off, so had a suspicion it's defective.. so we'll see.. i'm guessing those three columns on it are the selonoids, they're built in? guessing that's why i smelt the exhaust/carbon in the car with the vents on?

the coils, i don't hear the sound with the plugs on and car running.. just that big sparking and the stall kinda made me take notice since it was only one wire, but i've just heard that is normal for one of the wires to do that, jumping spark (that's a pretty big gap for it to jump though) and stall? think it was the last wire on the left, on the coil that was replaced before..
Edit: the actual wire wasn't sparking, it was the metal terminal i took the wire off of, with the spark going to the plastic cap, to clarify..

what's gonna be the cheapest way to deal with the lifters? i've been able to get parts only because the store is price matching the cheapest i can find online, and i found some really good ones.. like $10 map sensor, $12 rotor..

if it sounds salvagable with the lifters issues, i guess the next step is testing the icm? or doing something with the cam sensor? or something else?

Thanks very much..

[Ctimbers]

Update:
I brought back the EGR and exchanged it for another.. engine light is still coming on after about a mile or so down the highway..

still can't pull codes from under dash, and don't know why.. tried jumping the top and bottom right, also tried top two right, no codes at all... will try to get a pic tomorrow, maybe something about the terminals..

[Money pit Beretta]

Reset the computer and see if the codes come back.
I may be way off, but I think when you pulled the "last wire" the next cylinder to fire was the one with the bad lifter. I say that because I have pulled all the wires on one side and the engine still ran. On that bad lifter, you can get it fixed. It will cost alot if you take it to a shop, check into it to be sure that you want to try and save this car. I don't want you to spend money that you don't have. Test eveything you can for free. The EGR can wait by the way, other things must come first. If you can clean the IAC port that may also help. Carb cleaner can be sprayed into the port then use a paper towl and your finger to get in there. Then use a few Q-tips to get all the way in there(spray them). Also clean the cone looking thing on the IAC. Remember the oil for the O-ring. As these cars get older many things start to go wrong. Some are easy to fix, others are not. How many miles are on this car? Oh, and the screws that hold the IAC are Torx.

[Ctimbers]

Just to be sure, the IAC is in the 2nd pic, the black round thing seen just south of the EGR with wire leads running to the right, attached to the gray metal part which, if i read right, is the throttle body?

And yes, the car is old, 245K.. I should actually say well-used, not old..

I believe resetting the computer is just pulling the leads off the battery for a few minutes, yes?

Would the bad valve lifter give is such a spark like that? Like little white lightning bolts jumping from the terminal where you pull the plug off the ignition coil over to the cap/coil itself?

And I need to spend as little as possible true. Have asked before a couple of places about fixing the valve lifter, they won't even give me a price, only say that the car isn't even worth it cause it's basically rebuilding the engine.. don't think i could [EDIT : DO It Myself] since don't even have the right tool to change those rear spark plugs..

Don't know if this is related, but i remembered there is a short somewhere that when i put the rear defrost on, it messes with the power locks, they will start locking and unlock on their own, and the associated breaker in the car gets super white hot, can't even touch it.. like i said, no idea if related...

Hopefully it won't matter but cleaning that stuff out will have to wait until after appt. tomorrow, about 80 miles round trip.. still keeps feeling like it'll stall when stopped most of the time - you can see sputtering from the tailpipe when it does.. and also i notice/remembered tonite when swapping the part, when it starts sputtering/idling really rough like that, i see the lights dim and recover in sync..

It's not in sync with the rough idle, so not sure it's related, but keep hearing a loud click sometimes in the dashboard too that flashes my lights (it uses daytime running lights all the time).. never found causes for these.. ABS light is usually on too..

Also, can't see fluid level in antifreeze, don't know if it's low or overfull if either would contribute to any of this...

don't supposed you know a good mechanic out here that wants/can help for cost or less by any chance?

i think that's all offhand, getting a little tired here.. if that all doesn't tell you anything else, please confirm, disconnect battery to reset computer and cleaning those ports is first (is just paper towel ok without buying carb cleaner?), and getting the ICM checked.. any new gaskets needed for these? and still trying to figure out what to do about lifter(s)..

Thanks very much.. appreciate the help...

[3X00-Modified]

You can't jumper a 95 to get codes, you need a OBDI reader. Its a different style ECM, not the same as the 93 and older.

It sounds like this car has a lot of little issues that need to be resolved. Have you tested the ICM yet? If you can pull off a plug wire at the coil and it does not result in a huge bolt to the mounting nut then there is something wrong with that coil, it should spark to the 5.5mm mounting screw for the coil. Also the Cam position sensor is underneath the P/S pump. You need to remove that to gain access to it. Its the two pin plug that's right next to the alternator as far as where its connected to the harness.

Also why are you jumping to a bad lifter? You messed with some exhaust ports, I would ensure that the EGR is properly sealed before saying a tick is a bad lifter.

Replace the 30amp breaker on the fuse box with a new one, and also check the wiring/plug and switch on the console for the rear defrost, you may have a melted overheated switch which is causing the short. Its happened to me twice.

The only tool you need to do rear plugs is a long extension and a universal joint, even that's not needed if you remove the coil packs because with those out of the way you can gain access to the plugs.

Also if you have a current EGR code, replace the EGR with one from a yard or something. They are 300 bux new, so start with a yard one. I also have some if you need one to try.

[Ctimbers]

Thanks for the reply. Glad to finally know i'm not crazy being unable to pull codes. whew! That's one good thing. Stinks I can't do it myself, but yea!, i'm sane.. well, at least as far as this goes..

Anyway, The cam sensor (what am i looking for, to see if it looks like it's been replaced?) and testing the ICM (under the coils, right? 6 screws and you're there?) will get back to later, car will be hot after appt., have to leave shortly.

The coils, I'll check again later to confirm results and let you know.

For the amp, i've swapped the silver breaker with the one above and same results.. have had the dash apart and didn't notice anything.. was a while ago, and had help at that time.. can look again.. i need to remove the whole dash to get to it again?

The lifters was a different issue.. aside for these other issues, there was no knock/tapping before the following incident.. was getting oil changed and they forgot to put a sticker, so it went over due, not sure how much but must've been more than i thought.. then one day it just started tapping, and it was loud, thought i'd blown it completely... 3 different mechanics shops said the lifters were making the noise, they didn't even hesitate, it was very, very loud at the time, still spring and pretty cool.. and that noise has been acting just like they said - been pretty quiet with the warm weather, but if we get a cool night and i start it early, can hear it just a little, but goes away when the car warms up.. and now it's getting cooler again, starting to hear it a little more the cooler it gets, and gets quieter when it warms up... definately not even close to the same kinda zapping noise i get when taking the wires off the coils.. its more like knocking/tapping, and was very, very loud that you're scared it won't even make it down the block...

The EGR was replaced with a new one (price matched, less than $100), but it gave a very slow little tick, wouldn't have even noticed except i was doing the rotors and the car was off.. thought it sounded like an old clock that was almost unwound.. but i brought it back and exchanged it for a different one.. getting back to trying to clean those ports later today if the weather holds..

Not sure what to do about the lifter(s).. that one worries me.. the rest you guys are helping with a lot so i can actually get stuff done.... Thanks very much.. i do appreciate...

[3X00-Modified]

This is why I'm sad that some of the others that know things are regulars on Bstuff and don't come on this site where people are actually working on Beretta's and not their Camaro, or Thunderbird or something else... The tap theory could have been eliminated a LONG time ago, instead it has spiraled out of control to be lifters.

Here are the common things that cause a tap in our cars

Stretched timing chain (not common unless its been replaced with a lesser quality unit, or run on a big cam)

And the biggest thing that every "genius" mechanic will say it's lifters, is the standard piston slap a 3100 motor has.


If it's there cold and goes away warm it's piston slap and it is what it is, it will NOT cause an issue and you can ignore it.

Our pistons whatever material they used will contract when cold and expand when hot (as most metals but it does it a good amount), and there is enough space in a 60* motor to allow the skirt to tap the cylinder walls, They did not (until 03+ IIRC) put Teflon coating on the skirts of the pistons to quite this down. If you were to replace your pistons you would see they state there is now a Teflon coating on the sides to quite it down.

So in the end... Don't worry about the lifters because its not that, your motor is acting like every other high mileage 3100. It will last forever with that noise.

I'm running at about 6k on an oil change right now and noticed that I was 1 1/2 quarts low last night (oil light came on) and I've over run my changes in the past and going over 3k on an oil change will not immediately kill a lifter or wreck bearings... you really need to like run these engines with NO oil pressure or NO oil whatsoever to cause permanente damages like that.

Just pull the black cover off around the cluster that has the headlight switch and wiper switch in it, and look at the plug and the switch on the wiper side where the defroster plug is. I will bet its starting to melt. (brown in color, also trace back the wire see how far it looks like its overheated)

And yes the ICM is below the coils, Please pull that out and test it. Its a #1 cause for any type of skip or bad idle on these cars.

The Cam sensor you will not be able to tell if its been replaced or not... But if it was an old code it may just be due to the plug being disconnected during a start up or something like that. Clear the codes by leaving the battery disconnected overnight and then go from there and see which ones come back.

[Money pit Beretta]

GM went cheap on all of us, in the old days they would fit pistons to the bore. Now they use all the same size, that = slap when cold. 6r8ph1X did have some bad lifters on his old 3100 that is why I was talking about that.
You must use carb cleaner for the IAC port and on the IAC(try to keep it away from the O-ring).

[3X00-Modified]

6r8ph1X did have some bad lifters on his old 3100 that is why I was talking about that.

Was this proven? and how?

[Money pit Beretta]

PM sent to 6r8ph1X, if he has the time I'm sure he could give more info on this than I could.