95 Beretta 6cyl- intermit rough idle/run/stall

[Ctimbers]

Thanks for the help with the steering.

I have another issue. It has had an intermit. problem with rough running/sputtering and a little stalling while stopped. For example, I could be sitting at one light and it purrs like a kitten so smooth I get scared it stopped, then at another light 15 mins later its rough and trying to stall and stepping on the gas seems to help prevent the stall but still a little rough.

Don't know if it's related but also intermit. the Engine light has come on but doesn't stay on. Only one time it was on long enough to have a shop run a code and they said EGR valve. If the engine light is not on when they check, it comes back with no codes. I have tried the paper clip jumpering the two right portal to read codes on the dash, never get anything, not even the ok code 12.

Don't know if this is related too, but at start, usually cold but sometimes even warm like at the store, if i step on the gas it won't respond right away, like it'll go a little, then putter and stop accelerating, then I give it more gas until it moves and it's ok.

I just changed the EGR valve today. Was there something I could have done more than just changing the part and gasket? There was a lot of carbon in there, and it seemed to run more rough after the change.

I've also ordered the map sensor, heard a lot about problems with that, and the pcv valve

So there are 2 Questions:

1) Any ideas on the rough idle?

2 anything more I should have done when changing the EGR valve, like to clean out the carbon or anything?

Please.

Thank you very much.

[Money pit Beretta]

Yes, it would be a good idea to clean the EGR port out. The problem is how to do it, that stuff is very tough sometimes and it's hard to get anything all the way inside the port. On my 95 I had to use an old wire, so old that it was stiff. A wire hanger was too stiff to make the turn.

[Ctimbers]

For the EGR, so you just stick a wire brush in there best as you can to clean it out?
and it's ok if stuff falls down into the tube?
use a spray too, or just dry brush?

thank you very much..

and if anyone has anything on the other issue, would be great to hear on that too please... thank you..

[Money pit Beretta]

Well, that's kinda tough. It's kind of a trade off, chunks in the tube or the intake are a bad thing, but you do need to open them both up. With the intake it is best to take off the TB and clean any chunks out(don't let them go into the engine). That I know of the tube does not get too much build up(but i'm sure it could). Those chunks will end up in the cat. I guess you could use a shop vac when pushing a rod down it to try a pull some out(although you would be pulling air in from the exhaust pipe, so it might not work very well). The key area it the intake, it is that port that is so hard to clean out. The passage it right in front of the tube that is under the EGR. If you look at the side you can see it. I don't know of any cleaner that would break up that stuff. On my 90 the port was straight and I used a screw driver(the upper intake was off the engine). With the 3100 you can't do that.

[Money pit Beretta]

I didn't find anything in my port, just the area that you can see if you take the TB off. You may be able to open it up from there with a wire coat hanger with a 45 degree bend and suck it out with a shop vac. Yours could be blocked very bad and you may have to go in from both sides. If you take the TB off it would be a good time to spray some carb cleaner in it and clean it. Also take off the idle air control and clean its port out. Q-tips can help there(don't use anything that could scratch the port).Clean the IAC's piston off as well. Put some engine oil on the IAC's O-ring before you put it back in. Oil off the dipstick is good for O-rings, no need to open another bottle. Some day you need to seam clean or Sea Foam the engine after you get it running right.

[Ctimbers]

Thanks.. I'm still unfamiliar with a lot of this stuff, but makin my way as things go along.. don't have a lot of funds, but so far I've been lucky the parts store is price matching anything (ie: rotors found online for only $12 so they price matched, so I got new rotors and replaced them myself, pads still had life)

I don't have a shop vac.. if it's an quick and easy part to clean, like under the EGR, i can probably use the vacuum at the gas station..

I guess this is one time being bad with names is really biting me in the a$$... so I've attached pics because even though I might have an idea of what some of these things are, like TB=Throttle body, but not sure which O-rings you mean, if you want to draw on it and send back with labels, that would help a lot, like 1)=Throttle Body, 2)=Another Part i need to clean/check.. I know which are the EGR, MAP, wires(of course), ignition coils, few more, but won't be offended if you label something i already know - too much info in this case is so much better than none..

In one of them I took the EGR off again to show you what I was referring to with the carbon cause I didn't know the name (Marked it "Here", the horseshoe shape - what's the hole in the middle?), even though you probably already knew but I wasn't sure which parts were what when you responded.. Didn't really check the hold in the middle, but the horseshoe part was really black, not gooey, just lot of carbon build..


Also, earlier this year, it was supposedly backwashed with strong cleaner for the fuel injectors at the shop, they said something about injecting the line directly, and I think the throttle body was supposedly cleaned as well (which one is that please so I can look?)

Let me know if you need any additional infor for diagnostic help too, or should we see if the map and pcv help the rough idle.. and once I know which parts are what, I can check the things you said...

Thank you very much.. the help is really appreciated..

[Money pit Beretta]

I don't know how to draw anything on your pics. In photo 1, the port is at the top, just above the hole in the middle. In photo 2, the IAC is the black round thing on the TB. The O-ring is on the IAC, you will have to take the IAC off to see it. Oh just in case, the TB is in photo 3, it's the one that the air cleaner housing is connected to by the large black tube(the one that comes from the side of the car). The TB must come off so you can try to clean the EGR port on the inside of the intake. I wouldn't take the EGR off too many times without putting a new gasket on. The TB will need one if you take it off also. I have to stop now and ask something. When was the last time you put plugs and wires on? I see that you have one new coil. If you lose another then the ignition control module is bad(it's under the coils). You have a MAP sensor, but I don't think it will help(put it on anyway).

[Ctimbers]

I don't know how you can see that in the pic, but yes, there is one ignition coil that was changed about 2 or 3 years ago, maybe even 4 not sure (show off ) .. at the time, it looked like the same one was replaced before and the other 2 might have still been original (the other two were still labeled with numbers, but the one being replaced had no markings).. it had the same intermit. issue then but it has gotten a bit worse as time goes on..

not sure about plugs and wires.. it's been a couple of years, that much I know.. if memory serves right, I think we did wires and plugs then too, but I could be wrong.. I can pull a plug and check for carbon.. supposed to rain tomorrow, so might have to wait an extra day.. wish i had a torque wrench though, always worry about under- or over-tightening plugs especially - really don't need them to leak, and really, really, really don't need one to break off..

ran it for a little while today, and since adding antifreeze the other day (couldn't really see how full), but the engine light has been coming on more.. could overfilling cause that? or a leak in the system where it's burning (it was mentioned the dashboard coolant light might have burnt out that's why it no longer warns me when low).. I think I poured in about a quart or two, still couldn't tell how full it was.. ? I'll try to get the code, but it's on and off, so don't know if it'll be on long enough to get it.. still can't get them with the paper clip trick for some reason (jump the top right and bottom right under the dash, correct?).. this happened after adding the antifreeze when the steering hose was changed, but both before and after the EGR valve was done...

Oh, if u want the easiest way to just draw on pics with the mouse, most windows come with a program "paint", just open in that, and use the paintbrush to draw on it, then save it... also cool for putting mustaches and "x" on things... There's another easy way using Powerpoint if u don't have photoshop that u can do more, pm me for those instructions if u want...

The EGR came with a new gasket when i changed it, so that's done..

For the ignition coils, if i remember right, to test them again, start the car, and pull off one wire at a time, and if it stops then it's bad?

Thank you very much...

[3X00-Modified]

I don't know how you can see that in the pic, but yes, there is one ignition coil that was changed about 2 or 3 years ago, maybe even 4 not sure (show off )

He called it by the numbers being gone.

BUT have you had your ICM tested yet? Its the ignition module below the three coils. If that starts to go haywire you will get a rough intermittent idle.

[Ctimbers]

Still surprised you could see that in those pics.. very impressive...

I don't think the the ICM has been tested.. the only test over there is like I said before was where the care was started, and pull one wire at a time till you get a different response, which is what happened at the time.. but I think that tests the coils only?

Is there an easy way to test the ICM myself? Or does that have to be costly computer tested?

Thanks very much..

[3X00-Modified]

Autozone or Advance Auto Parts should test them for free IIRC just like an alternator or a battery.

See if they do that in your area, and yeah pulling wires will only test a coil spark capabilities for the most part, But you could have not noticed an issue because the coil showed up as bad, but once you replaced it did you re-test it? it could have been the ICM issue making the coil look bad. The coils in these cars very rarely die this is why I say that... It's more often than not the ICM.

[Ctimbers]

The first time this was happening, before a lot of work was done including transmission rebuild, there was an additional symptom that it felt like the gears were slipping once you went around 50mph or higher.. [EDIT: Was especially noticeable going uphill] ...
when they did the tranny, they said they couldn't see anything wrong with it, but rebuilt it anyway.. when i first got it back, it ran so much worse, couldn't drive it around the block, and they said it was normal.. brought it back, and think that was when they did the coil maybe plugs too, not sure, was a few years ago.. got it back running right 2nd time..

Could the ICM simulate that problem, where you think the tranny is going but it's not? or would that have been the coil? or possibly something else?

Also, I don't have an alternate ride to the store, so if I have to take the part out to get it tested, need to know if it will be complicated or lengthy to do as I would probably do it in their lot - already called and they don't do repair service on site, but didn't ask if they test if I brought it in yet... (anyway to home test it?)

Thanks very much...

[3X00-Modified]

I don't know how to home test it since its an electronic control part, they need to plug it into a machine.

To get it out all you have to do is pull all 3 coils off and then it falls right off the bracket, so its only 6 screws and 3 plugs, yes you can do it in their lot.

Your other issue I'm not sure about... taking corners or going up hill should not emphasize an issue if its electronic... The only thing that I would have said about that is the trans pump was being starved and it was falling out of gear... but you should have solved that by rebuilding the transmission.

[Ctimbers]

Advanced Auto will check it, so when the weather breaks, I can 1st do the coil test, then bring it down and have them test the other.. Thanks much...

In the meantime, about the EGR I put in, seems to be a little bit of noise coming from it even when the car is not running.. kind of reminds me of a clock, but very, very slow ticking - like once per minute or two.. can't hear it in the cab, only if standing outside, especially with the hood open... is the EGR possibly defective?

Thanks very much

[Money pit Beretta]

That is strange, never heard of that. If you are for sure that's where it's coming from. Put a flat head screw driver on it and put you ear on the handle to make sure it's coming from the EGR. New pulgs and wires could help if you have the money(a good ICM will cost $190)
The middle coil on your car is cleaner than the others, that's how I knew it had been replaced.
Are you sure the converter is not just unlocking when going up a hill? At around 45mph the converter should be locked up, if there is too much load it will unlock. When it does the RPM will go up a small amount. When the load goes away it will lock up again.