Just to clear the air

[Amateur]

so i read these interesting things on a 3rd party for sale thread that was recently locked

3X00-Modified

Yeah a 2.2 manual... its nothing special. They needed that to even get moving since the engine was so powerless.

GTU89

Serious question, are the 2.2's that bad?

The 2.2 is a great Daily driver. It's more for torque which works great for around town while maintaining good fuel economy. It's reliable if maintained correctly (like any engine for that matter). They have better weight distribution than the heavier v6 brethren, and super simplistic to work with plenty of space in the engine bay. The engine makes 120HP and 130 lb ft tq. These aren't low numbers at all considering that they're somewhat equal figures to the output of modern day 2012 compact vehicles like a kia rio or a hyundai accent. Granted it doesn't put the same mpg, but hey, can't compete with modern engine tech of direct injection, lighter alloys, and a 6 speed transmission.

The car weighs 2756lbs vs the z26 at 2989lbs. You can't find many cars today that run below the 2800 lb mark. That means the base has 22.9lbs to lug per hp while the Z26 has 19.8lbs per hp...not a monumental difference.

To get a better scope, the engine has as much torque as a Ferrari 206GT Dino (138ft lbs), more hp and torque than a 1993 Alfa romeo spider and compared to a modern day 2005 mx-5 that weighs in at 2500lbs; it has more torque and only shy of 26 hp on the top end.

I know that the car is not a sports car, but the engine is not "powerless." what power is, is relative. It's car with more than enough power for its size and purpose. FWD are terrible cars when pushed and there is too much power and torque going to the wheels without a mitigating system in place, I am going to say the mazdaspeed 3 as the example. Great car, but needs awd. You just can't keep fighting physics.

I've autocrossed my 2.2 and beat Bigger cars with "power" like a 2009 accord v6, a 2009 golf, a 1997 ford probe GT in my class, and posted faster times than a ford fusion, a nissan 240 sx. Was off of a pontiac G8 by 2 seconds; off of a wrx and rx8 by 1.5 seconds for the course.
On top of that I own a 2007 rio with 110hp. PLENTY of power for its size and weight (2400lbs!). It drives like a go kart.

Power is relative, it isn't everything, and alot of a car's strengths comes from the driver.
of course if you're talking about a straight line drag, than yeah these engines suck.

[GTU89]

That's sorta what I thought, at least the later 4 bangers. The old ones only have like 90hp, right?

So, for example. Would say, a 96 base with a 2.2 be as fast or faster than say, my GTU's 2.8? I know the 2.8 out does it on both HP and TQ, but it also weighs more too.

[Amateur]

That's sorta what I thought, at least the later 4 bangers. The old ones only have like 90hp, right?

So, for example. Would say, a 96 base with a 2.2 be as fast or faster than say, my GTU's 2.8? I know the 2.8 out does it on both HP and TQ, but it also weighs more too.

Oh god yes, the original 4 bangers were 2.0 liters and didn't have the superior sequential fuel injection that the later ones had. Those where some dark days.

I haven't had time to check out your album yet (heavy week at work), so i don't know if you're running the auto or stick. IIRC With auto, it's on par with a base 5 speed at around sub 10 seconds. On stick, you should be running around the sub to mid 9 second range. Now if you're going stock vs stock, your GTU wins everytime with your vastly superior handling package.

Now you may already know this, but a car is only as capable as how you tune it depending on its intended purpose. The only reason my car holds its own is because its got lower, stiffer springs/shocks, upgraded brake rotor/pads, small diameter wheels with the the chunk of the performance coming from the super sticky non R compound tires. Tires is king when it comes to cornering and braking. Mind you I wasn't even running a rear sway bar and the stock front to mitigate the body roll.
The car is meant to be a corner carver, naturally it suffers in straights but considering autocross rarely pushes a car past 45-50mph with its technical layout, it's a sacrifice i'm willing to make.

[weba]

Having owned 2.2, Quad and 3.1MPFI w/ 3 different transmissions, here are my experiences:

- 2.2 / 5spd is almost as slow than 3.1/auto, there really Isn't lot of difference.
- 2.2 / 5spd /FE1 easily over handled 3.1/auto/FE7 without even trying, and felt more dependable pushing the limits
(I felt the nose-heavy V6\auto limits are: Driving in traffic. Going any harder would mean plowing to nearest ditch)
- 2.2 / 5spd does over handle 3.1/5spd, but the difference isn't as significant as with granny tranny
- 2.2 / 5spd gets really tired when you have more passengers and\or load on the car
- Isuzu 5spd gearing is perfect mach for the 2.2, But unusable on low-end torque V6 (first gear is pointless)
- Getrag gearing is decent for Quad, but not that great for V6 (too low redline)
- In handling, Quad eats all other combinations as breakfast, cause all the power is usable and not much is wasted with torque caused wheelspin

And my 0.02€ of drive train selections in Beretta:
- Forget the automatic gearbox in FWD car, It ruins your car totally and makes your life miserable.
- V6 is the selection for daily\city driving even with fuel costs up (torq makes it easy) ...and it sounds the best too
- Quad is best for the racetrack where you keep the RPM's up all the time and seek the limits of the car
- 2.2 is best for... I have no idea, It isn't really that great for gas mileage, maybe reliability and maintenance is where it wins? Extremely simple engine to work with.

[Koots]

The 2.2, during the brief experience illegally driving my Corsica, does have TQ and mid range power, which is nice for a base model engine in a compact car, Especially from this era.

My 97 Civic with SOHC (some go fast parts, but nothing special) had very little TQ and it would only reach it's 97FWTQ peak at over 4500RPM. It did have 117WHP, but that only made it good for passing cars on the highway. Trying to driving around in traffic, in a hilly, congested city...wasn't fun and the winter only made it worse.

My 2.2 is still held down by the OEM cam, but with the gasket matched and blended head, stainless generic header and ported intake should make up for the lack of top end power it had a stock motor with blown headgasket. I think a reworked cam and/or 1.6 roller rockers would make it feel even better.

[Styluss]

And my 0.02€ of drive train selections in Beretta:
- Forget the automatic gearbox in FWD car, It ruins your car totally and makes your life miserable.
...

I disagree completely!! I LOVE my auto and would never want to change a thing about it. Except for adding a 4th gear. I do not like having to deal with stop and go traffic in a 5 speed and that would be my main reason for not wanting one. Although I have driven a 5 speed version of my exact car and I have to tell you that yes, it was much more powerful and well, it was a bit more fun to drive. I enjoy the simplicity of getting in my automatic car and just driving and letting the car do the shifting thinking for me.

PS: Let me show you my trophy shelf and you may have to reconsider your "...it ruins your car..." statement.

[scd88ga]

And my 0.02€ of drive train selections in Beretta:
- Forget the automatic gearbox in FWD car, It ruins your car totally and makes your life miserable.
...

I couldn't agree more! The Quad 4 5 speed trumps all! And I would still have my supercharged 3800 88 Grand Am if it wasn't for that crap 3 speed! $1,800 to build that trans as much as possible and it was completely cooked 13,000 miles later including the LSD insert! Doesn't get much more miserable than that IMO!

[ErichZ26]

And my 0.02€ of drive train selections in Beretta:
- Forget the automatic gearbox in FWD car, It ruins your car totally and makes your life miserable.
...

I couldn't agree more! The Quad 4 5 speed trumps all! And I would still have my supercharged 3800 88 Grand Am if it wasn't for that crap 3 speed! $1,800 to build that trans as much as possible and it was completely cooked 13,000 miles later including the LSD insert! Doesn't get much more miserable than that IMO!

swap a 5spd with the 3.8

[Alpinestar10]

And my 0.02€ of drive train selections in Beretta:
- Forget the automatic gearbox in FWD car, It ruins your car totally and makes your life miserable.
...

I couldn't agree more! The Quad 4 5 speed trumps all! And I would still have my supercharged 3800 88 Grand Am if it wasn't for that crap 3 speed! $1,800 to build that trans as much as possible and it was completely cooked 13,000 miles later including the LSD insert! Doesn't get much more miserable than that IMO!

swap a 5spd with the 3.8

.

X2 thats what i would have done camaro flywheel milled down to the size of our flywheels is the only thing you would have needed.

[Koots]

I couldn't agree more! The Quad 4 5 speed trumps all! And I would still have my supercharged 3800 88 Grand Am if it wasn't for that crap 3 speed! $1,800 to build that trans as much as possible and it was completely cooked 13,000 miles later including the LSD insert! Doesn't get much more miserable than that IMO!

I know that with the longitudinal transmission, the TH350 was the standard 3-speed, but in the 80's they decided to give it a lock-up solenoid for 3rd gear and promptly turned it into a grenading POS, while the original TH350 was one of the most versatile and durable automatics ever made.

So, I can't help but think the TH125 could be better, if it weren't forced to lock up in 3rd.

[3X00-Modified]

I couldn't agree more! The Quad 4 5 speed trumps all! And I would still have my supercharged 3800 88 Grand Am if it wasn't for that crap 3 speed! $1,800 to build that trans as much as possible and it was completely cooked 13,000 miles later including the LSD insert! Doesn't get much more miserable than that IMO!

I know that with the longitudinal transmission, the TH350 was the standard 3-speed, but in the 80's they decided to give it a lock-up solenoid for 3rd gear and promptly turned it into a grenading POS, while the original TH350 was one of the most versatile and durable automatics ever made.

So, I can't help but think the TH125 could be better, if it weren't forced to lock up in 3rd.

You can very easily disable that... and I doubt that's the issue.

I have yet to grenade my 4t60e and I know those are not built that much stronger than the 3 speeds.

[Koots]

You can very easily disable that... and I doubt that's the issue.

I have yet to grenade my 4t60e and I know those are not built that much stronger than the 3 speeds.

A stronger trans would help, but my observation was simply that, an observation.

The TH350C is identical to the regular TH350, except for some roller bearings and converter lock up. Yet it is a throw away transmission compared to the standard TH350. I spent less than a grand in parts on my TH350 and it is estimated to handle 600HP, but that's all in the skill of the builder (me )

[weba]

PS: Let me show you my trophy shelf and you may have to reconsider your "...it ruins your car..." statement.

You would have three times the trophys if raced with proper transmission

[scd88ga]

I couldn't agree more! The Quad 4 5 speed trumps all! And I would still have my supercharged 3800 88 Grand Am if it wasn't for that crap 3 speed! $1,800 to build that trans as much as possible and it was completely cooked 13,000 miles later including the LSD insert! Doesn't get much more miserable than that IMO!

swap a 5spd with the 3.8

.

X2 thats what i would have done camaro flywheel milled down to the size of our flywheels is the only thing you would have needed.

I had started collecting parts for the 5 speed swap, but like I said, the car is long gone now. The funny thing is, the car WAS a getrag 5 speed at one time! Yup, it was a quad 4 5 speed car, but I bought it as a roller. I still kept the manual steering column in it though! Basically, I bought my Z26 and my El Camino, lost interest is the GA, (had it for like 4 years, ran high 12's when the trans was good, daily drove it year round for 3 years) parted it out and sold the shell. I'd like to do it over again with a NICE 90-91 Calais International with a Series 2 SC 3800 and the 4 speed HD auto trans or maybe a getrag 5 speed. So many more option with the Series 2! I could make damn near 300hp with just a pulley and a tune! Oh well, that idea will be on the back burner for a while! / thread hijack! lol

[LX9Power]

I agree with Weba the only thing I will had is this:

The 4T60-E with a DHP is the Fastest,most consistent trans you can have in beretta.But it is the heaviest as well.
from fastest to slowest:

Quad4/ 5 speed ( any years)
3100/Auto
3.1/5 speed
2.2 5 speed
2.8/ 5 speed
3.1/auto
2.8/auto
2.2/auto

I have seen a 3100 converted to 5 speed and it was posting similar times to a Quad4.
There was (is?) a turbo manifold on e-bay for the 2.2, which is the easiest to turbo, but not the best to get power from.