Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Want some new struts? What brand springs to buy? How much camber to run? What brake pads? What's the best setup for your situation....
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yellow3800
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Re: Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Postby yellow3800 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:33 am

As requested, here is an update from Koni. I offered to buy 20 sets of beretta original and it didn’t dignify a response... so that number must have to be way up there to resume production. Here is what they wrote me after reading this thread:

Andrew,
The closest cut-a-stuck insert in production now would likely be the 8610 1351Sport from the ’04-’07 Subaru WRX. Though just like previous options the valving is much different than that was used in the 8641 1239Sport for the Beretta. The compression damping is nearly 3x that of the Beretta damper. The length dimension are of the WRX insert however are actually much closer than that of the Mitsubishi insert 8641 1231Sport that was being used.

8641 1239Sport
MinL – 417mm
Maxl – 580mm
Body Dia. 47mm
Compression @.33m/s - 400
Rebound @ .33m/s - 650

WRX – 8610 1351Sport
MinL – 390mm
Maxl – 560mm
Body Dia. 44mm
Compression @.33m/s - 1100
Rebound @ .33m/s – 1600

Mitsubishi – 8641 1231Sport
MinL – 375mm
Maxl – 528mm
Body Dia. 44mm
Compression @.33m/s - 900
Rebound @ .33m/s - 1050




Mason O’Hara
Technical Sales Representative
KONI - an ITT company

koni

1961A International Way Hebron, KY 41048
T (859) 488 0324 | F (859) 334 3340) | mason.ohara@itt.com | www.koni-na.com



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Re: Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Postby Alxsmt » Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:12 am

Has anybody looked into the koni 8610 or 8611? I know they make them in a few sizes, and they seem to be pretty common to swap into random autox cars. Might be worth a shot


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Re: Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Postby 3X00-Modified » Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:05 pm

GOD DAMN, that's stiff.... but it may be what people want.

How would the tops interface into the upper mounts though? I know the Mitsu's needed both an additional spacer around the insert in the strut body as well as one on the top mount to make them work correctly.



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Re: Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Postby yellow3800 » Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:53 pm

That is the question! I will solve it by diving right in... I need to fix 4 cars suspension... so I’ll first be buying some nos mitsu and putting them to the old-style top bearings. If mitsu stock remains, (shockwarehouse) I’ll continue before going wrx... will post updates before years end hopefully.



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Re: Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Postby evsnova74 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:49 am

yellow3800 wrote:That is the question! I will solve it by diving right in... I need to fix 4 cars suspension... so I’ll first be buying some nos mitsu and putting them to the old-style top bearings. If mitsu stock remains, (shockwarehouse) I’ll continue before going wrx... will post updates before years end hopefully.


I tried to order them from shock warehouse and it charged my card at first, then a few days later I had a refund. I emailed asking why they refunded me and if they had these and never heard back. Then I googled to see if anyone else was saying anything about them and a lot of people were complaining about having to go through their bank to get their refunds so I just ruled them out and considered myself lucky.

At this point I'm wondering if there would be a problem with the balance front to rear trying to match these with the fox body rears. I just don't know enough about suspension I guess. If it's true that these are rebuildable, is it possible for them to change the valving when you send em in? I'm kind of at an impasse on this project because I don't want to install these eibachs unless I've got a good set of shocks and struts to go with them. I'm contemplating getting a set of KYB GR2s and being done with it despite seeing negative comments about them on this thread. It's just a winter car anyway.



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Re: Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Postby yellow3800 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:45 pm

It all depends on what you want and paying the opportunity cost for the end result. BALANCE IS ADJUSTABLE on a knob! It doesn’t get better than that (well some cars have electronic stiffness settings). So don’t consider balancing a problem. I adjust mine and go for a few months. Let’s say I then will drive a long way, I may want to soften them up. Curvy roads? I may stiffen them. Anything less is uncivilized! Lol. Now I thought that I went crazy placing an order with them. I ordered mucho stuff that week and did not snapshot my order confirmation. I do remember that total. Did I hit GO? Idk. No charge on my card either. I’ll try again tomorrow and thank you for the heads up! I’ll call them first to avoid arbitration.

NO- KONI will not change the valving when sending them in. They have their reasons. It’s on their FAQ. Excellent idea though.

Be careful buying old shocks. I have 4 cars to outfit. One daily driver got Gabriel’s cuz Mike Prides car is respectable for stock shocks so went with that. I don’t think that they are new and one blew out after 5 miles. So IF you go stock (uncivilized) I recommend the current brands. Oh and winter or beater cars need fun too.



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Re: Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Postby evsnova74 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:37 am

Is the adjustment capable of accounting for the difference between 400/650 for the L/N vs 1100/1600 for the WRX though? And I wonder what the numbers for the fox body rears are (I'm assuming that since one of the previous posts discovered that that brand of rear shock fit with a bigger bolt on the bottom, if I get koni yellows for a fox body of the same year that those will also fit).

I wondered about the old stock too. I put new rear shocks on this thing a few years ago and one is already blown out. While they're not as expensive as the konis (the WRX ones above seem to be way more than the prices I was seeing for the mitsus), the gr2s I found are 360$ for a full set so not exactly as cheap as the cheapest shocks and struts on rock auto- which is another option I considered- just going with uncivilized stock shocks and struts with fe3 springs for now while I continue to search for the konis, save these eibachs for the future. I'm already doing poly bushings everywhere, even the rear axle (thank you beretta.net), addco rear swaybar and 18mm direct acting front swaybar (fe7? It's from an gtz) so it'll be pretty good even with the stock springs and shocks/struts.

I also looked into the 8610/8611 option mentioned by alxsmt above. They might be doable but I don't know what it means by "gland nut" and couldn't find info on it with the little amount of searching I did, I'll keep digging because the dimensions look like they might work. I'll have to dig out an old strut and see what the diameter is, surely it's more than 43mm or whatever the 8610 I found was.

Kinda funny, I had this planned for a summer project so I could drive this thing through the winter and park the GTO when the salt comes. So I found the mitsus on jegs and ordered them. I got an email saying it will ship on 12-31-2021, this was many months ago so I wrote it off as not a viable option. But now that's only a month away so we'll see if they actually ship. Lol



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Re: Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Postby yellow3800 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:28 pm

Not sure why an internal nut means anything. These should install the same way - cut inards of stock shock out so housing is left, insert Koni and screw boom the bottom with one screw.

Mitsus are gone. I’m going wrx and Saab in rears. to answer your question earlier, they tighten (example wrx is 3x more than beretta original - yes Jon, what will THAT be like?) to this level. Who knows if soft settings will all match up. I don’t think that is measured. Tirerack beats lmperformance, shockwarehouse, thmotorsoorts To name a few. Offers on eBay are flying double right now trying to beat tirerack- ironically where I bought my one set of beretta konis in 2001!

I found a Koni document-chart showing all models and their data sheets from a search engine search of their site by accident. Can I do it again? Haven’t been able to. I will buy a set of these and put them in some car of mine hopefully by end of year and will post what I did. Expect delay if it gets out of hand and I need to convert shock tower or top bearings into a wrx hybrid like I expect. I LIKE KONIS THAT MUCH that I will.

$211 wrx front each
$153 Saab rear each



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Re: Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Postby evsnova74 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:33 pm

That's what I can't find info on- the universal 8610s don't have a bolt hole at the bottom and the 8611 double adjustable ones have a second adjustment at the bottom, so I just don't get how they actually install in the strut housing since they don't bolt in like the normal strut inserts.

From what I could tell the 8610 1437 is closest to what we would need based on the email above:
https://www.koni-na.com/en-US/NorthAmer ... ce-Single/

But at roughly the same cost as the WRX inserts it might be moot anyway. At this point I looked through all my stuff in the basement and found an old set of shocks that still seem to function, and 2 sets of struts that don't show any signs of having leaked their oil. Should at least get me through the winter and I'll figure all this out in the meantime.



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Re: Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Postby yellow3800 » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:07 am

Okay I’m up to speed. Thanks for the link. Idk how this works for a wrx then (8610) if there is no holding nut at the bottom of the cartridge.

Uhhhhh one more thing.

I thought that the gland nut was internal. Why not say “external mounting nut”?

It’s hard enough without needing to affix the bottom all over again.



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Re: Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Postby evsnova74 » Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:56 am

Sorry, I didn't even notice that the WRX's part number is 8610 1351sp, I probably shouldn't refer to the universal race ones I linked as "8610s". I'm sure the WRX insert is just like the normal ones and bolts in at the bottom. I was just talking about the ones alxsmt brought up that people use in random auto x cars, trying to look into all options.

And I have no idea about the gland nut, what it looks like, how it works, why they call it that, anything. I think I'm just gonna wait on how this goes for you and dive back into this next summer.



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Re: Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Postby yellow3800 » Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:25 pm

Alright I’m back. SHOCKS ARE DONE and here is how you do it everybody!

How to put koni wrx shocks in 1988 style Beretta
This includes Indy models so you guys get on this!

We don’t need any external/additional parts!

Here is how to put in a currently-produced WRX KONI into an old-style top strut steering bearing strut (‘87-‘94?). The Mitsubishi Eclipse Konis are gone. Ebay and 4 stores claiming stock had nothing. Tire rack wins (for Saab rears too) for price and I paid $211each. It’s easy and simple, so buy some for your car! I don’t have any new style bearing plates so someone will tell us the year upper limit I’m sure. Okay here goes.

If you have inserted original beretta (8641-1239sport) shocks into housings before, it goes pretty much like that, exactly like that if using a Gabriel shock housing. I did two here, one Gabriel and one ACDelco. The Delco requires a trick and both are similar where attaching to the top steering bearing. These pictures are an original AC Delco housing.

Prepare the beretta shock housing by cutting the top off to remove the innards. Now KONI wants you to cut a certain amount down the tube which exposes an inch or more of their shock... I did not go this low. I just made sure that the housing tube does not touch the KONI. If I cut too low on the Gabriel, I would need a bushing. By going down a half inch (2nd cut made after the innards removed) the “bushing” is already formed into the housing and I was able to use that (on the Gabriel).


To be cautious, because we don’t know for certain what’s inside the tube, cut near the top (as opposed to almost 2” below the top like koni instructs). Cutting too much toward the top and we can’t extract the guts, too low and we may have to cut the bushing separately in the vise (your choice really). We intend to use the inside as a clamp on the bushing should we need it. We don’t know if we need it yet and are preparing. Be aware that we may need a bushing here so the koni doesn’t flop around atop the tube after mounting. That’s why we are doing this.

44649F69-7BE7-48A1-A170-FCF72BFA8E9C.jpeg
Cut 1


39EB1AEB-DEDF-450A-AD1A-619B2D54439F.jpeg
3 piece


You can see what I did here. The right ring/bushing is what I’m using cut from the left two pieces. Discard the left two. This right bushing exactly matches the koni and of course the tube that it just sat in. It will hold into place by setting into the tube and lightly hammering the top of the shock tube over the bearing enough to hold it in place.

Here it is done. Before bushing, going in, and then bushing installed.

D38BA507-9D88-4569-99ED-36D359D54422.jpeg
1


3D55BD87-4AB9-4D4C-8B3C-481AE6AA07AC.jpeg
2


AE02C1D0-3875-40C7-850C-99C807C8F245.jpeg
3


Note: I did not use the supplied bushing because it didn’t fit as well as this does. If your shock tube varies more than mine here, you may work with it.

Now for the eureka moment on making these fit to the old style top strut steering bearings!

Pull the skirted bushing from the bearing plate. Channel locks work well.

50086363-07DA-4D96-BF23-6138FCBF980C.jpeg
Piston top


C78F491A-A46D-49E7-A2C3-E8275270A566.jpeg
Pre bushing


Since the koni’s shoulder is in the way no matter how we look at it, it’s easier to use the old bushing except we need to make it fit better. To get proper height (defined as 3 threads past a tightened nut) take the old bushing out of the steering bearing unit and cut the skirt off. Mine measures 0.64” and covers threads by some so the bushings seats against the bearing plate.

0219B216-6D02-4E13-B532-E718A1166325.jpeg
Vice bushing



Next, the koni shoulder is 0.584”
The busing is almost there at (forgot)... 0.560”?

I didn’t have a bit on hand so I just hand filed it to wider.

Now it fits on the koni!

BF30CCDF-7C17-4723-84F2-798214BF6B70.jpeg
Bushing last


Now rather than leave it on the shock, remove it and push it as far up to seat (below picture it’s not pushed in all the way) in the top bearing unit where it was so we don’t use the nut to draw it snug (difficult and so we don’t have to grip the shock piston risking damaging it when torquing the top nut).

4211D637-1F44-41DB-861D-58ECB55C298C.jpeg
Bearing plate


I did not drill out the bearing plate. Let the koni shoulder hit the mount as it should, or if your spacer is tall, it may not touch.
Last edited by yellow3800 on Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Postby evsnova74 » Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:31 pm

It's possible that the 92 and later strut mount would work, yours looks like the one from my 91 N body. I had to do something so I just wanted to get some cheap stock struts just to get me through the winter. Of course none are available for 91 and earlier cars so I tried a set for a 92 N body. They looked identical until I compressed the spring, had the upper and lower isolators and boot in place and went to bolt on the strut mount- they changed the depth of the shoulder on the shaft so the threads weren't even visible at the top of the mount.

I sort of did the same as you but I was afraid that it needed the lower (wider) part of that pre bushing to kind of sandwich the rubber part of the mount if that makes sense. Then I used a burr bit with a die grinder to grind the inside of the mount to basically make it thinner like a 92 and later mount. If I'd just known about this I would have gotten a couple 92 mounts and been fine.

I wish I'd taken pics but I was flying by the seat of my pants trying to think of some kind of solution. I got it done though and drove it home today, now the GTO can rest easy knowing it won't see any salt this winter.

Edit: btw I pretty much had to buy some new struts because as it turns out all my old ones I had were too rusty to install a koni insert into, plus now I'll have the tabs on the struts for the 18mm direct acting swaybar.



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Re: Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Postby yellow3800 » Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:21 pm

Glad to hear that you prevailed!

I believe that ebay sells upper strut steering bearings and some of the “box stores” do too. I’d call junk yards too in the event that box stores stop selling them. Heck, buy the entire built strut (Ebay) and have no rust whatsoever and new springs plus the bearings. I’d do this in front of buying the later model strut bearings because I know that this works. Some people buy other cars. I don’t. My 3800 lemon has been a daily driver since 1999. It’s solid. This is how I justify $211 per (front) shock times 4 per car times 3 cars... my reward is so much greater than a replacement car. AND I have killer shocks that the new car won’t have!

As for cutting the hat skirt off the factory bushing, I stared at it a while. I played with it. In my opinion, it is an acceptable loss to lose the stabilizing factor because it only touches rubber... can’t be too significant, and can’t see stress on it anyway. Compression (and expansion) are the primary loads, which is pushed directly on metal to the top of the steering bearing plate as before, with rotation not needing the hat so I elected to continue. Side load is absorbed into the rubber as before. The test of time will tell.

I’ve been sitting in this info from Koni after offering to buy a bulk quantity all by myself. Looks like I would have been stuck with them based on this.

Just getting it out there. This is why we adapt.
*******
The part number 8641 1239sport we are looking at here was only produced from 1992-2002. During the decade of its production, only 3 of those years did KONI North America sell more than 50 car sets. For the last 7 years of production sales averaged just under 20 car sets a year.
*******

As you can see, these wrx Konis fit my car like the original. I only used a hacksaw and hammer (to hold a top bushing in strut tube, used to fold housing metal over as a retainer) beyond what’s normally needed. Not having a beretta p/n is a non issue. Now go get em!

Andy

Lemon ‘88<—- original p/n Konis still strong
Indy <—-will get em, car cookie jar money allowing
89gt<—- new Gabriel stock shocks DD car
Orange 3800 <—- the ‘91 shock build covered here



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Re: Koni Yellow PN's Bilstein #'s

Postby evsnova74 » Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:06 am

There is metal not too far behind that rubber though. I was hoping I could just use a woodworking forstener bit to cut it down to an acceptable level but of course when I started digging at it with a chisel there was metal about a quarter inch down. That's why I had to go at it with a die grinder. If I only had a cross section of the mount to see how necessary it was to have that hat skirt on the bottom side of it I might have just done what you did. I was just afraid that the metal at the top didn't go under the main section, but it probably does. I can't wait until summer to tackle this and finally use the Eibachs I've been sitting on for so long.

As of now, the 92 and later struts I'm using aren't letting the knuckle adjust back far enough to get some negative camber- I've got them maxed (or minned?) out as negative as they'll go and it still looks positive to me. Plus the wheel weights from the SCX wheels were hitting the strut housing so I had to bring out the angle grinder. Doesn't make any sense, I compared it to what came off of it and it looked identical as far as the part that mounts to the knuckle. It's looking like I'm gonna have to elongate the holes a little more before taking it to get an alignment. I'd hate to take it somewhere only to be told that they can't make it any more negative and it's like 1 degree positive.

Edit: went back today and loosened the strut to knuckle bolts more to see if they were maxed out on the slots, they weren't. I just thought I had em maxed out to negative and didn't. Now I have no reservations using these as suitable housings for these inserts once I get through the winter.




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