95 Beretta 6cyl- intermit rough idle/run/stall

[6r8ph1X]

check this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd4tFXvpTak

this is one i made back when i had my 96. besides the obnoxiously loud piston slap, you can hear the lifters goin bonkers. then here's a video of when i replaced the lifters and had a happy motor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8N2d7fpUhg

hehe, then about 30,000 miles later she developed extremely severe piston slap. oh well, i 3400'ed it and then traded her. i kinda miss it.

[woody90gtz]

Since when is working on a Camaro such a bad thing? haha

[Ctimbers]

Thanks..

Here's where i'm at today..

checked out those links posted.. hard to tell if it's the same sound, but could be.. mine's been pretty quiet over the summer, but i can tell it's slowly starting to get louder again as it gets colder.. funny you put that up cause i was thinking when it gets noticeable enough, was going to make a recording and try to post the sound..

removed the battery cables to reset the computer codes.. engine light didn't come on this morning, but came on this afternoon on a short run.. if it comes on again, will try to get to get the code.. thinking it's going to be the same as before, the one that came up current, but we'll see.. what is the EGR solenoid anyway, is that one of the towers on the valve i put in or something else? i did notice one of the plug wires touches the top of the valve, you might see that in one of those pics, that wouldn't cause that error code, would it?

was going to bring the car over to the part store to get those checked.. was late, so the guy offered to meet and take a quick look at the car on his way home thinking it wouldn't need it, just a tune up.. figured one more day won't hurt instead of rushing.. he suggested wires & plugs, plus a cheaper alternative to ICM and coil problem would be that sometimes the [in my words] "goo", the stuff they put on that's usually clear and supposed to help transmit the electric charge, might be worn away, and thought i should just put on extra "goo" [can't remember what it was called] on the ICM and see if that works first.. if not, then test the coil and ICM... any thoughts on that please??

weather didn't hold, so didn't get to do the cleans.. but the guy was saying not to worry about getting the carbon in the ports when doing under the EGR, to just spray in carb cleaner, and the car will be hard to start at first but eventually will go and the stuff will burn off and be ok, said same with the IAC and throttle body (to open and be sure to get cleaner inside by pulling the throttle wire)... thoughts on that too please??

it was really not running good today, so next trips are only going to be to get "goo" and/or carb cleaner, or test parts..

Thanks very much...

[Money pit Beretta]

Boy that takes me back man. Thanks for looking it up a posting it.

The pulg wire is on the EGR? Move it! The only way that could do anything is if there was a break in the wire and it was arcing over to the EGR. It would be best if it wasn't on there. I would think it would fry the EGR(lots of volts going threw those wires). Dielectic grease? It helps the connection and keeps moisture out(moisture is hard to get in GM's weatherpack connectors though). I don't see how it could solve a problem in a unit. You must clean the IAC and the port to be sure that it's working the best it can(not getting stuck or moving too slow). It is much more easy to do it with the engine off. If there is a spark jumping you don't want to get hit by it. Try the carb cleaner on the EGR port, but it may not help(we will see I guess). Get on that testing, we can talk and talk but that will get you nowhere. Yes, plugs and wires would be great.

[6r8ph1X]

The guy at the auto store doesn't know quite enough. Die electric grease isn't going to help any trouble codes lol. what you NEED to do is take off the throttle body. i'll try and snap a walk through tomorrow when I'm up at the shop. also the plug wire probably isn't doing anything at all to that egr.

This WILL fix your egr code.

Step 1.

1st, take the throttle cables (while the car is off obviously) and dis-attach them from the throttle linkage. then, take the appropriate socket and take the two bolts holding the black bracket attached to your throttle body out. Then there will be a nut (i believe these are 10mm) down on the front side of the throttle body that you need to take off. once this black bracket is off you can proceed to step 2.

Step 2.

now you need to take the 2 bolts holding the throttle body to the upper intake out. I believe these are 10 or 13 mm. there are only 2 with the exception that there is a nut holding the heater bypass tube on the bottom bolt. you need to take this nut off, and then you can take an open ended wrench and slide this bolt out (if you don't want to lose any coolant by taking the heater hose off). this SHOULD allow you to lightly pry the throttle body away from the intake plenum. There will be coolant lines attached to the throttle body depending on the year (not sure about 95's). Now proceed to step 3.

Step 3.

now, you should see a small hole toward the cabin of the car where the egr tube comes from. When i cleaned mine, this hole was being blocked by a quarter sized chunk of carbon!! no wonder i had egr codes. you can take a coat hanger and scrape and poke this hole out and spray carb cleaner and whatnot and you should be able to get this hole opened up. Once again, this WILL fix the egr code. it may even help with your idle.

re assembly is the reverse of the tear down. I hope this helps and i'll try to snap pics of this either tommrow or this weekend when i go up to the shop.

Have fun! and keep that Retta-a-rollin!

[6r8ph1X]

OH, you may need a new throttle body gasket after that procedure.

[Ctimbers]

Actually, to me this is a lot of progress... yes, painfully slow, but maybe not for an old fart newbie like me .. frustrating as it is, but by taking it slow, i'm not throwing more unnecessary money at the car that i can't afford.... plus also learning what not to do so as not to screw it up even more, that's a big huge plus.. like that "Dielectic grease".. it didn't sound like a great solution to me but it was a cheap possibility that might work, but i've less experience, so had to ask before moving on... the last thing i need is to put some goo somewhere it isnt supposed to go and break things, or put $100 into something it doesn't need.. it's why i came here .. and i appreciate all the help - a lot!...

so it's good.. it sounds like there's agreement to skip the D-grease in the icm and just go for the test..
see? definitely a lot of progress happening, at least from my view - i didn't break anything new today
...

Added: just saw the new post -
the guy from the store wasn't thinking the D-grease would rid the codes, but thought it would solve the rough idle instead of buying a new icm, which i'm now noticing the hesitations even on the highway at 50+, so kinda worried it's the expensive part, or both will be good and then i'll be looney bin material saying "now what?'.. anyway, he was saying to use the carb cleaner regarding emissions, but didn't really get into the light issue cause it hadn't come on again yet since the reset..

if you don't mind, any chance u can you snap one of the EGR solenoid so i can see what it looks like too please?

Question:
Would that other code in the history, 017 Ignition control camshaft sensor problem, be contributing to any of this, the rough idle/running?

on the agenda now - rough idle first, emissions 2nd:
1) forget the D-grease on the icm for now and test the parts
2) if bad, replace [oi, fingers crossed,]; then
3) clean that stuff
sound good?

And thank you again folks..

[6r8ph1X]

omg, there's the issue man, cam sensor is kaput! thats not a good thing, if the sensor can't read when the cam is in it's certain position, then it can't tell it when to spark, therefore causing very rough to not even idling. i would replace that sucker and it should fix the idle. then clean the egr port. forget the grease. good luck and i'll try and get pics.

[3X00-Modified]

No no and no....

the cam sensor does NOT determine spark. its only for SFI fuel function. you could un plug it and the car will run fine, just in MPFI mode firing 3 injectors at once rather than sequential. Its a fuel saver function and thats it.

PM me your address and I'll send you an ICM as soon as I find one, I will look friday when I'm near my parts, and I can send it Monday. I am willing to bet EVERY problem your having can be simply fixed by replacing or even just testing (FOR FREE) the ICM since that has everything to do with spark, and is a common failure.

I know you may not have time or be busy, but why do you keep asking us for input if your going to ignore it and then just listen to the parts store guy... I told you to test your ICM at the beginning of this post to get your weird idle and skipping fixed, but you haven't done that yet, why?

If your really concerned about the Cam sensor possibly causing an issue, then just unplug it, that way it will eliminate any chance of that messing with the fuel. As I said its the three pin plug that's right next to the alternator, and next to the injector bulkhead. (harness side is a Male plug, Sensor side is a Female plug Image below for reference)

This is the plug your looking to disconnect to eliminate the Cam Sensor if you really think that's the issue.



Also an intermittent SES code like that is bound to be EGR, did the code come on when you were on the higway with your foot off the gas? Decel?

If the Cam Sensor were in fact bad it would throw the code immediately when you started the car, not a half day later.

The ERG solenoids are the three towers on the EGR, there are three pintiles that are controlled by electromagnetic motors and they vary in sizes. One thing you can to that may extend the life, is simply take the unit apart with the torx screws and pull each pintile out and lubricate it with some anti-seize or just graphite, obviously after cleaning it. They can just rust in there and then not move which will throw a code.

[3X00-Modified]

I got a different description for a P0017 code.

One I got was "Crankshaft Position-Camshaft Position Correlation Bank 1 Sensor B"

So this brings you to 3 sensors that could be not agreeing with each other... Cam sensor, Block Crank sensor, and the Pulley crank sensor.

Functions
Cam sensor: SFI Fuel function, Determines Cylinder 1 TDC
Block Crank Sensor: Connects to ICM for main spark detection and timing
Pulley Crank Sensor: 24x high resolution crank sensor, should smooth out idle with higher resolution.

The car can be run with the 24x and the cam sensor BOTH unplugged. to isolate the issue.

Typically neither will throw a code when unplugged too, and I had a 24x sensor go bad and it never threw a code.

[woody90gtz]

I have a 95 EGR I'll get rid of if you need it.

Somewhat off topic... does a 91 have a 24x sensor? My cam sensor and 24x sensor are both unplugged. Obviously the cam sensor is useless to me, and I didnt find a plug in for the 24x sensor, so I assumed that was a 94+ thing too.

[3X00-Modified]

No, you do not have the 24x sensor on the 91. That all came with the SFI function.

[Ctimbers]

On the contrary, i've been hanging on every word.. thought it was a big compliment to y'all not to just do what that fella said, but to come here and ask first... besides, he was originally supposed to listen to the tap, it's just starting and too quiet to record yet, not cold enough.. but of course, it wasnt pinging when i got there..

like i said, old fart newbie here, only know some basics, so lots of things need extra clarifications, so i ask a lot.. but getting the test has been bad timing, on my part not the car that i know of, - bad weather, appts/errands, car too hot, yesterday that guy just stopped by cause was too late to get to store when done, so he met me and car around the block... just been bad timing... so i keep asking questions until timing is right.. like this morn, weather's holding, gonna eat and go (finally ) ... now watch, i'll blow a tire around the corner and the spare will be flat.. LoL

[6r8ph1X]

i accidently poked a hole in my spare with the screw to hold my sub boxes down lol. oops, good thing i got the one out of the 96 also lol.

[Money pit Beretta]

Blow a tire? Don't bring down the bad karma on yourself by talking about that! LOL! Like I think that way. Hope it goes well.